Prime or Leaf SL+ this weekend

First time poster here looking for some advice.

I'm going to be purchasing either a prime or leaf this weekend to take advantage of the 0% financing 60/mo and ev incentives.

I test drove both and really leaning towards the leaf. I love the way it drives, interior, and the fact I don't have to visit the gas station every 2-3 days.

However, my round trip for work is 140miles. So it's going to be ~30k miles per year. I'll be passed the powertrain warranty in 2 yrs and battery in 3.5 yrs. Still financing the car after warranties are over.

Should I still consider the leaf? Will the electric powertrain and battery be an issue in the long term?

I always keep my cars over 10yrs. I still have my '10 Prius that I bought in '09.

Do not buy the Leaf.

You have a long distance need, get the hybrid prius.

We have a Leaf Plus, it takes a lot of charging to get you 140 miles every day, probably about 6 to 7 hours a night at L2. and remember- everything is slower in cold weather. Slower to charge, fewer miles per full charge, etc. Can you charge L2 at work? or even plug in at L1? If so, the commute gets a lot easier. The Prime is a great car, if you charge it both at home and at work it will use electricity for a decent portion of the miles..... However, we all hope that the leaf plus will last many many years if charged and driven correctly...

We moved from the 2013 to the 2019 Plus this year and love the car (and loved the previous). We are in Chicago, so summers don’t get too hot. In summer I have driven as far as 240 miles on a charge on the freeway (with conservative driving). Winter with heat, You are at 150-190 depending on heating/driving style.

For those of us ev fans, not having to hit a gas station or go for an oil change is huge value.

That said, a prime is still better than nothing.

That's a tough decision. Essentially you're asking whether you'll be able to reliably make a 140 mile round trip on one charge for ten years. That will depend on a lot of factors, such as where you live, how fast you drive to cover that distance, and whether there is any possibility of charging at work or on your way home in a few years.

For example, if you drive 85 on the freeway and it's 35 degrees out and raining, you won't make much more than 140 miles when the car is new. If you can plug in at work to a standard 110V outlet you should be able to recharge ~4 miles of range per hour, which should be enough cushion. If your employer adds a Level 2 charger in a few years, your car should be fully charged by the time you leave work and you'll never have any problems.

No one knows yet what the new Leaf battery degradation will look like, though we do know a few things: First, it degrades much faster in very hot places like Arizona, and in hot and humid places like Florida. The models with a heat pump save a lot of energy in moderately cold temperatures. And Nissan, which has done far more testing than anyone here, has probably designed the battery to stay above ~65% after 100,000 miles or else they'd just have to replace them all under warranty. You want the battery to stay above 65% for 300,000 miles over ten years, though. That's possible, but sadly not very likely.

So, I could only recommend you get the Leaf if you think that the finances make sense even if you keep it only five years, or if you think that you might be able to charge at work or at a fast charger on your way home in a few years.

Fussion101 said:

First time poster here looking for some advice.

I'm going to be purchasing either a prime or leaf this weekend to take advantage of the 0% financing 60/mo and ev incentives.

I test drove both and really leaning towards the leaf. I love the way it drives, interior, and the fact I don't have to visit the gas station every 2-3 days.

However, my round trip for work is 140miles. So it's going to be ~30k miles per year. I'll be passed the powertrain warranty in 2 yrs and battery in 3.5 yrs. Still financing the car after warranties are over.

Should I still consider the leaf? Will the electric powertrain and battery be an issue in the long term?

I always keep my cars over 10yrs. I still have my '10 Prius that I bought in '09.

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Even if you get the 62 KWH battery, you will still need to charge it every day. 250 charge cycles a year plus weekends. In 4 or 5 years the battery will be down 30% and barely adequate for the commute in good weather. If you intend to keep it 10 years, this is not the car for you. A Tesla would work but is probably more than you want to spend. If your electricity is cheap enough, you might save enough in fuel costs to justify it though. Otherwise buy the Prime.

johnlocke said:

Fussion101 said:

First time poster here looking for some advice.

I'm going to be purchasing either a prime or leaf this weekend to take advantage of the 0% financing 60/mo and ev incentives.

I test drove both and really leaning towards the leaf. I love the way it drives, interior, and the fact I don't have to visit the gas station every 2-3 days.

However, my round trip for work is 140miles. So it's going to be ~30k miles per year. I'll be passed the powertrain warranty in 2 yrs and battery in 3.5 yrs. Still financing the car after warranties are over.

Should I still consider the leaf? Will the electric powertrain and battery be an issue in the long term?

I always keep my cars over 10yrs. I still have my '10 Prius that I bought in '09.

Click to expand...

Even if you get the 62 KWH battery, you will still need to charge it every day. 250 charge cycles a year plus weekends. In 4 or 5 years the battery will be down 30% and barely adequate for the commute in good weather. If you intend to keep it 10 years, this is not the car for you. A Tesla would work but is probably more than you want to spend. If your electricity is cheap enough, you might save enough in fuel costs to justify it though. Otherwise buy the Prime.

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Have you looked at the Hyundai Kona EV or Kia Niro EV? They both have better range, a better battery system that will last longer, and are good vehicles that have been well rated. I have sat in both (last time while getting my first leaf service) and like them. I like the Niro ev better on the inside, and more space, but the Hyundai has more range. You will pay a bit more, and they are harder to obtain. As to plugin hybrids, don't forget the rav4 plugin is coming soon as well.

In my area my real highway range for the 40 kWh version seems to be closer to 100 to 120 miles than 150. I seem to average about 3.3 miles per kWh on the open road at real speeds.

Thanks for the input everyone.

There's only one lvl2 charging station at work but it is always taken so I'm going to be charging 240v at home. $.08/kwh

Looks like wanting 10 years out of the battery is an unrealistic expectation on my part. Let's say I'm willing to replace the battery in 5yrs or when it's down to 30% (can't find cost of 62kwh replacement). Will all the other electric powertrain parts last 10yrs before needing to be replaced? I know nothing is guaranteed but just based on owners experience in this forum.

Haven't really considered the Hyundai but I'm looking into the Kona EV right now since you mentioned it. It seems like this is a new model for them so not sure of the reliability. I know Nissan and Toyota have been doing this for a while so they were on the top of my list.

Another issue to consider: while the battery in the Prime will likely last 10 years, it too will lose capacity. Our 2013 Prius PHEV (aka "PIP") has already lost about 33% of its capacity, despite being treated carefully to preserve the battery. The Prime would still function normally and get great gas mileage after 6 or 7 years, but don't count on the electric range staying above 20 miles - or even 15.

My point is that your combination of a long commute and the desire for a 10 year EV or PHEV may not be practical. I suggest you either consider a longer range EV as suggested, or revise the length of time you plan to keep it. Or get the Prime. In the last case, expect to hate the car well before 10 years is up. :| If you prefer the sportier driving characteristics of the Leaf, then the Prime won't satisfy you. The Model Y may be what you want, but I'm not going to recommend a new Tesla model, given their spotty quality control record.

Fussion101 said:

Looks like wanting 10 years out of the battery is an unrealistic expectation on my part. Let's say I'm willing to replace the battery in 5yrs or when it's down to 30% (can't find cost of 62kwh replacement). Will all the other electric powertrain parts last 10yrs before needing to be replaced? I know nothing is guaranteed but just based on owners experience in this forum.

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There are 2011's still running around. The one's that didn't make it had tree limbs fall on them, hit by pickups and VW's and had batteries die after the warranty. Yes, there have been some misc. failures. Charger, parking brake, door handles. Some cheep to fix, some not worth fixing. Doesn't seem to be any common large problem. Mostly the LEAFs just keep going.

For a commute I recommend a EPA range roughly twice that. More or less depending on details. Mild weather, lower speeds, less range margin for a commute. Colder or hotter weather, higher speeds, more range needed for a commute. Bad weather, detours and errands, climate controls, and batteries degrade.

The Bolt at 259 miles would be closest. Not everyone likes the seats. Probably the Prime would be a better choice.

Another thing to consider about the Prime: AFAIK it uses the same engine as the previous generation, and that engine isn't as bulletproof as advertised. It has design flaws that often result in chronic rough idle and even rough highway running, and it's a real PITA to work on - you have to remove the windshield wiper assembly (not just the arms - EVERYTHING) to change the spark plugs, for example. If you want to avoid the drawbacks of an ICE, the Prime isn't necessarily your best choice.

I would go along with those suggesting the Prime. While I really like my all EV Leafs and I just have the older 60-70 mile ones, still especially in your case driving so many miles, it would be nice to have the backup of an ICE. The nice thing about something like the Prime is even though it's EV range is pretty low, the MPG when using it's ICE is very high.
We have an older('07 Prius) and haven't really had any issues other than recent rusted rear springs which broke and required a $600 repair, otherwise the engine and EV powertrain has been rock solid. Not saying you might not have issues like Leftie did but both Toyota's I've had in the last 1.5 decades have gone over 10 years with basically no issues, much better than can say about my Nissans which have had several small issues, all under warranty.
All EVs are nice but in your case I'm not sure I'd want to 100% rely on EV.

Fussion101 said:

I test drove both and really leaning towards the leaf. I love the way it drives, interior, and the fact I don't have to visit the gas station every 2-3 days.

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Here's some math:

You drive 140*5=700 miles per week for work. The Prime can only do about 25 miles a day all-electric if you charge at home, so we'll basically ignore that.

Prius Prime: $27,750
55 mpg, 11.4 gallon tank = 620 miles of range
Gas: $2.60/gallon
700 miles / 55 mpg * 2.60 = $33/week in gas
- Fill ups will be around once a week

Leaf SL+: $36,400 after optimal incentives
3.7 miles/kWh, 60 kWh battery = 220 miles of range
Electricity at home: $0.08/kWh (corrected to your post)
700 miles / 3.7 miles/kWh * $0.13/kWh = $15/week in electricity at home
- Fill ups at home every night, and if you miss one you can't make it to work

• The Leaf comes out ahead on weekly cost, but costs almost $9k more (or about 600 weeks (11 years!) worth of fuel savings) in the best-case.
• You can probably write off weekly fuel costs from both vehicles as a work-related expense, but the same doesn't apply for the Leaf battery. $36,400 is after $8k in subsidies from the $45k list price.
• The drivetrain on the Leaf is never going to give you issues, but the battery will almost certainly degrade to around 80% of original capacity within 6-8 years while the Prime will at most lose 5-10 mpg over that timespan or even improve due to wearing-in
• At around 3 full charges a week, you'll put ~150 cycles on your Leaf battery per year. Batteries tend to hit 80% capacity after about 700 cycles, giving you about 5 years of life in the pack before your range drops to 170 miles.
• The SL+ battery won't be down to 30% capacity after five years - maybe 80%. But a replacement pack from Nissan will be around $15k.
• Roadtrips longer than 200 miles will take about 60-70% longer in the Leaf than they would in a Prius due to the time required for charging.
• Other posters have mentioned possible maintenance issues with the Prime, but I've ignored them as they're not likely to cost more than $5k over a 10-year span.

The Leaf is a great car, and fun to drive, but on a purely financial basis I'd go for the Prime.

In case you really want to spend $37,000, you could get a used 2014 Tesla...

coleafrado said:

[*] You can probably write off weekly fuel costs from both vehicles as a work-related expense, but the same doesn't apply for the Leaf battery. $36,400 is after $8k in subsidies from the $45k list price.
[*]At around 3 full charges a week, you'll put ~150 cycles on your Leaf battery per year. Batteries tend to hit 80% capacity after about 700 cycles, giving you about 5 years of life in the pack before your range drops to 170 miles.

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How can you write off weekly fuel costs as a work-related expense? I thought that was for things that were not related to your commute. If that was true, I would need to get some money back from the IRS. Plus, didn't they get rid of that in for the 2018 taxes?

If he works 5 days a week, he would need at least 5 charges a week. So that's a least 250 charges a year. I think you were using math in a situation that's not feasible.

I drove a Prime for a year and I didn't really like the way it drove compared to my 40 KWh Leaf. I also didn't like the adaptive cruise or Lane keep assist of the Prime. The Leaf's ProPilot is better. But I wouldn't choose the Leaf or Prime over the Kia Niro EV/Hyundai Kona EV if I was the OP.

Triggerhappy007 said:

How can you write off weekly fuel costs as a work-related expense? I thought that was for things that were not related to your commute. If that was true, I would need to get some money back from the IRS. Plus, didn't they get rid of that in for the 2018 taxes?

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Well, as I understood it, any work-related expense can be counted against your income. So you'd have to log miles. Might only be true if you're self-employed, I'm not super up-to-date on tax laws.

If he works 5 days a week, he would need at least 5 charges a week. So that's a least 250 charges a year. I think you were using math in a situation that's not feasible.

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That's right, forgot to account for that even though I said they'd need to charge once a week.

I ended up getting the prime. Thank you everyone for all your inputs. The leaf definately handles better. Steering is too loose and too much body roll on the prime. But I'll live with it. I also found out Toyota increased the battery warranty to 150k miles.

I actually consider it sad that this many years later, it's still the case that a car with an ICE (plug-in hyrbrid or not) is still recommended over a LEAF by those who own/drive the LEAF.

jlv said:

I actually consider it sad that this many years later, it's still the case that a car with an ICE (plug-in hybrid or not) is still recommended over a LEAF by those who own/drive the LEAF.

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Well, I think very few people commute 140 miles per day.... That is a gas-powered car distance..

Personally, I don't ever want to trash my Leaf.... Even with low battery, or with a new battery, I want to keep MY electric car in my hands.

What I fear may happen is that the interest in electric cars will fade, and manufacturers will count on people junking EVs that have hard-to-get batteries..

Proof of point- I recently heard that Honda will not sell the Honda "E" mini EV in the U.S. because there is not enough interest for new EVs in our country...

powersurge said:

Well, I think very few people commute 140 miles per day.... That is a gas-powered car distance..

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No, that is not a gas-powered car distance. What you mean is that is a distance a LEAF cannot do. There's a difference.

Counterpoint: We have someone here at work who is doing a 150 mile commute in a Model 3.

^^^It's a distance that no relatively affordable BEV can do for ten years in all conditions, yet. A Model 3 LR, probably. Although the OP's made his choice (the right one IMO), I would just remind others who buy cars for the long haul that Hyundai/Kia don't offer capacity warranties in the U.S. (but at least one of them does in Canada).