Why are so many people angry towards the LEAF

https://insideevs.com/news/381654/dutch-plugin-market-october-2019/

Anyone else notice that anytime the Leaf does well or sell more than a dozen somewhere, the EV media acts in shock, surprise, or even disgust? I understand that many prefer a Tesla or Kia now, but not sure why the need to act in disbelief when people choose a Leaf for their EV? The whole EV market, including the LEAF, continues to get better. Shouldn't we all celebrate that. And though sales are slow in the US, globally overall, the LEAF still sells in pretty reasonable volumes, 7K+ monthly.

Tesla Fanbouys are upset as the LEAF is still the best selling EV.

^^^
LOL! Unfortunately (?), w/the rate at which Model 3's are selling, the slow selling Leaf will lose that title soon. Total cumulative sales of 3 will pass the Leaf and stay that way for the foreseeable future.

I'd say much of it stems from their terrible handling of the early battery degradation problem. When you stiff-arm your most ardent early adopters, you turn an enormous amount of goodwill into criticism that is slow to fade. And then they demonstrated that they were unwilling or unable to learn from that mistake by allowing RapidGate to happen.

Nubo said:

I'd say much of it stems from their terrible handling of the early battery degradation problem. When you stiff-arm your most ardent early adopters, you turn an enormous amount of goodwill into criticism that is slow to fade. And then they demonstrated that they were unwilling or unable to learn from that mistake by allowing RapidGate to happen.

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Yes, Nissan surely should have priced the early LEAF $10k higher, and used the extra money to provide the warranty that some people wanted. I would rather have a cheaper LEAF, but then I'm in a cool climate.

RapidGate is another case of TeslaFanBouyism. If you are not selling a performance car, it will not be a performance car. Nissan wasn't selling a performance car from the start. Unlike what a significant fraction of early buyers wanted. Nissan could have engineered a much higher cost performance car.

The more MBA type solution would have been to set earlier expectations closer to reality.

I think the model 3 is a great car. It just doesnt check as many boxes as the Eplus Leaf SL. I think the Y will be a nice compromise.

I suspect some of the anamosity is the early degradation rate of some leafs in high temperature environments. Not a problem where we live. .

Nubo said:

I'd say much of it stems from their terrible handling of the early battery degradation problem. When you stiff-arm your most ardent early adopters, you turn an enormous amount of goodwill into criticism that is slow to fade. And then they demonstrated that they were unwilling or unable to learn from that mistake by allowing RapidGate to happen.

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There was also their terrible handling of the battery pack degradation warranty that was essentially forced on them. They denied people who were a mile or two over 60,000 miles (at least one went over on the drive to the dealership to have the pack replaced) or 5 years. For a couple of years they improved a bit, then went back to treating Gen I Leaf drivers like poor relatives.

Since I've started driving the LEAF I've observed a significant increase in the number of angry drivers with road rage. They do not like the car and/or my driving, and are sure to let me know it.

LeftieBiker said:

Nubo said:

I'd say much of it stems from their terrible handling of the early battery degradation problem. When you stiff-arm your most ardent early adopters, you turn an enormous amount of goodwill into criticism that is slow to fade. And then they demonstrated that they were unwilling or unable to learn from that mistake by allowing RapidGate to happen.

Click to expand...

There was also their terrible handling of the battery pack degradation warranty that was essentially forced on them. They denied people who were a mile or two over 60,000 miles (at least one went over on the drive to the dealership to have the pack replaced) or 5 years. For a couple of years they improved a bit, then went back to treating Gen I Leaf drivers like poor relatives.

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It still seems like they don't care about you after you buy the leaf. I don't know what their costs are for the older battery packs, but haven't they continued to raise the cost for replacement packs? what are they right now, 8k? If prices are $100 / kWh, it should cost about $2k. For Nissan lets say its $200 / kWh. That's still only 4k. Its almost like they don't want you to be able to afford a replacement pack. then there have been horror stories, true or not, about dealers outside of the US trying to charge a **** ton for new packs. I totally get Nissan can't be out of pocket if the warranty is gone, but that's very different than trying to rip off the former customer. Does brand loyalty mean nothing?

I don't see the article "angry" to the LEAF. The 2 places it is mentioned:

Hyundai Kona Electric was #1 this time, as the Tesla Model 3 slowed down. The third most popular was the Nissan LEAF.

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Surprisingly, Nissan LEAF with 286 registrations, managed to catch onto the podium in October, just ahead of Kia Niro EV (272).

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Perhaps you mean the 2nd quote with "surprisingly". The LEAF was in 5th the previous month and it's sales doubled. That's surprising.

It's my impression that Tesla hate is worse than LEAF hate. I haven't heard about vandalism on the order of what Tesla owners experience.

I imagine it comes down to the threat of a disruptive technology displacing people's way of life. Dealers are hesitant to sell them because they make their money servicing gasoline and diesel vehicles. Their relatives are losing their jobs at automotive factories. Their petroleum stock is falling. The status quo is changing, it's upending people's worlds, and they're trying to decide where to place the blame.

I have to say that although I think this 2016 LEAF is the perfect car for me, I think it's going to become very difficult for Nissan and other major automakers to compete with Tesla and other outside-the-box companies. Conventional automakers are going to need to become much more innovative. They're holding on to old conventions (such as, the motor goes under the hood), and it's only going to hurt them more with time.

I am increasingly impressed with Tesla products, service, and philosophy, and the Model 3 is my top recommendation for those looking to buy a new EV.

WetEV said:

Nubo said:

I'd say much of it stems from their terrible handling of the early battery degradation problem. When you stiff-arm your most ardent early adopters, you turn an enormous amount of goodwill into criticism that is slow to fade. And then they demonstrated that they were unwilling or unable to learn from that mistake by allowing RapidGate to happen.

Click to expand...

Yes, Nissan surely should have priced the early LEAF $10k higher, and used the extra money to provide the warranty that some people wanted. I would rather have a cheaper LEAF, but then I'm in a cool climate. ...

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I don't agree that was the invevitable binary choice. The Lizard battery did not raise the price by $10,000. And free replacements aren't a substitute for acceptable product quality. I suspect the failure lie in the battery testing, or in "Go Fever" where dreadful test results were either fudged or kept away from decision-makers. Nothing else makes sense to me. I simply can't believe that executives would have put that product out, fully knowing how those batteries would **** the bed.

I think it's the post-sale handling of the Leaf, insane repair costs, and general not taking care of your customers.

Some examples:
1) They jacked up the price of the replacement battery, after selling a defective battery
2) They don't provide firmware updates for any existing cars, like Tesla does
3) The repair costs on most Leaf parts are crazy expensive. My passenger occupancy sensor failed and they wanted $3k. This guy had his brake system have an electrical failure on a 2015 with 25k miles and they want $4600 to repair it:
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=30566&p=572266#p572266
The list of expensive repairs and parts goes on and on.
4) The Leaf doesn't have the "fun" aspect that the Tesla cars do. Most people buy cars based on emotion.

Nubo said:

WetEV said:

Nubo said:

I'd say much of it stems from their terrible handling of the early battery degradation problem. When you stiff-arm your most ardent early adopters, you turn an enormous amount of goodwill into criticism that is slow to fade. And then they demonstrated that they were unwilling or unable to learn from that mistake by allowing RapidGate to happen.

Click to expand...

Yes, Nissan surely should have priced the early LEAF $10k higher, and used the extra money to provide the warranty that some people wanted. I would rather have a cheaper LEAF, but then I'm in a cool climate. ...

Click to expand...

I don't agree that was the invevitable binary choice. The Lizard battery did not raise the price by $10,000. And free replacements aren't a substitute for acceptable product quality. I suspect the failure lie in the battery testing, or in "Go Fever" where dreadful test results were either fudged or kept away from decision-makers. Nothing else makes sense to me. I simply can't believe that executives would have put that product out, fully knowing how those batteries would **** the bed.

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The Lizard battery was probably at worst similar in cost to the earlier batteries, or more likely less in cost. Experience pays off most of the time.

Then pick a different delta price. A new product has many possible ways in which product quality isn't as expected. Customer takes no risk, customer pays more. Early LEAF buyers ended up with both less risk due to court ordered warranty and with lower price. And were unhappy about it.

While I thought the article was OK I think it is just something new that people do not yet understand. I saw this with same behavior towards the VW bug in the late 50's and 60's or the diesel farm tractors of the same era.

If it is different it is bad is a mind set still around today.

We would not own an EV today if Nissan was like Ford and others that came on the market with EV's only to have issues and throw up their hands and pull off of the market.

The 2016 Leaf SL is the sixth Nissan I have owned since 1973 but it is the first one without a gas tank. Some Nissan owners just thinks the Leaf is a Jute. Most people do not give a rats tail about what the Leaf is or is not. I like the 2016 because it is a beautiful high quality car that I could afford. I have not driven it for two days now due to ice, snow and salt and I really miss it but the Subaru is still running fine with new like tires.

Nissan has introduced the world to EV's and are still in the game with Gen 2 and coming with a new from frame up car in 2021 that early specs indicate it is positioned for the Model 3 market.

Many people are always angry about something.

In about 8.5 years of driving the LEAF I never felt somebody was angry towards the car. The irony is that somebody was upset by the Clarity PHEV saying that I do no pay gas taxes. That changed, I get to pay $675 annual additional tax for having three electric cars that we drive about 17000 miles a year total.

Edit.
I just did the math: if WA has about $0.64 tax per gallon of gasoline I pay the tax for about 1000 gallons of gas. My EV "average" 17 mpg. Now I am angry.

Nothing is changing for 2018 DoE estimated that electric vehicles reduced liquid fuel demand by 0.25%

Leaf owners hate the leaf. ( I like mine)
Everyone hates tesla drivers, the cars are kind of cool.

I'm glad Nissan doesn't care enough to firmware update the cars. Then it would be a 3,800lb an iphone loaded down with bloatware slowing it down and killing the battery until you get tired of it and buy a new one.

If they implement an ev tax here I will just drive on expired tags. I get pulled over about every 5 years or so, it would be worth it if the EV tax was over $50. I probably won't get pulled over in the leaf because I usually drive under the speed limit.

I've owned a 2013 Leaf S (with QC), 2017 Volt, and 2014 Tesla model S. I enjoyed the Leaf and did not have any issues besides the battery degradation (1 bar lost at 45,000 miles). I tried to use best practices for battery life by never letting the charge drop below about 20% and only charging above 80% on the rare occasion that I was trying to make a "long" trip in the car. The car was always located in a temperate climate. I never saw any angry attitudes from any other drivers. I personally was disappointed with Nissan for designing the battery in such a way that it was very fragile and saw relatively rapid degradation. Both the Volt and Tesla have had next to no battery capacity degradation. The Volt actually gets more range than Chevy promised while the Leaf consistently got worse range than Nissan promised. Tesla has a very well thought out charging infrastructure that makes extended trips easy. Trying to quick charge the Leaf was always an adventure. The charging stations (Blink) were often broken in some way so you could not count on them for trips. From the press I see a lot more anger for Teslas (random keying of paint, etc.) than Leafs. I can't understand why Nissan continues to design battery packs without active thermal management. EVERYONE else does now. How hard can it be to figure out?? Angry - no. Disappointed - very.

jonemyers said:

I can't understand why Nissan continues to design battery packs without active thermal management. EVERYONE else does now. How hard can it be to figure out?? Angry - no. Disappointed - very.

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If designing a performance EV, active thermal management is a must have. No question.

If designing a commuting EV, rarely QC'd, mostly driven around town, active thermal management might not be a great idea. Downsides include the higher risk of fires, increased cost, reduced reliability and increased energy use. Yes, with current battery chemistry, hot climates are less suitable. Moderate climates is a break even, cooler climates there is no point to active thermal management as it never turns on, except perhaps to heat the pack and reduce battery life.

If you want a hammer, a saw isn't a good tool. If you want a saw, a hammer isn't a good tool.

WetEV said:

If designing a performance EV, active thermal management is a must have. No question.

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You keep repeating "performance", but what you call "performance" I call a car that can easily do a 400 mile road trip. It doesn't need awesome 0-60 times. It needs to be able to keep taking a fast charge all the way to my destination.

For that, active thermal management is a must have.