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Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:30 am
by turbo2ltr
Math was never my strong suit.. lol.

Based solely on observations, there is little change in range at the end of the day. Even if I loose a bar soon, I am still very satisfied with the range. I also drive much more aggressively than I used to. In my 2011, it was rare for me to go over 70. If traffic allows, I'll do the 20 miles home at 75 mph.

If I have time, I'll try to get some battery data this weekend.

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:27 am
by Valdemar
GetOffYourGas wrote:
turbo2ltr wrote:So I've been way out of the loop with this forum and Leaf news in general.

I turned in my 2011 after 3 years and it was down several capacity bars. I got a 2013 to replace it (in Dec 2013) and (correct me if I'm wrong) that pack was the "improved" pack, but not the newer lizzard pack?

In any case, I'm afraid to post here (I need some wood to knock on) but I have 23k on it after 27 months, this will be the third summer coming up and I do not have any capacity bars lost. I'd say I have maybe around 2%-4% loss in range. (I used to get to work with 80% left, now it's 78 to 76% on average)

Overall it seems to be holding up quite nicely.

Up to a few months ago when carwings stopped working, I was charging to 80% when I got home from work, and charged to 100% a few hours before I left for work the next morning. I think this works well for balancing the pack as leaving it overnight gives it time for the cell temperatures to even out before balancing.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Hope others are getting the same results.

I haven't figured out what I will do at the end of this lease. The model 3 is very enticing, but I expect we won't see it for at least two years.

Honestly, what I'd really want is a late model CNG Explorer so I don't need to keep a Leaf *and* a long distance car but not give up my carrying capacity and HOV privileges... I suppose I could do like everyone else and just drive in the HOV lane anyway. :roll:
I'm glad to hear your battery is holding up somewhat, but your math is a little off. From your statement, it sounds like you have lost a bit more than 2-4% (assuming, of course, a reasonable accuracy of the gauges - a questionable assumption with Nissan).

For your commute, you are using 22-24% of the battery when you used to use 20%. Assuming that your efficiency is the same, this is a loss of 9-17%, not 2-4%.

20% / 22% = 9% loss
20% / 24% = 17% loss

Put another way, if your original usable capacity is 21kWh, you used 4.2kWh (20%).
4.2kWh is 22% of 19kWh (9% loss)
4.2kWh is 24% of 17.5kWh (17% loss)

So your battery isn't really holding up as well as it seems. It sounds like you may soon lose a bar.
Still, it appears to be an improvement over 2011/12 packs for Phoenix.

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:30 am
by LTLFTcomposite
I scanned through this whole thread as we're still jonesing for cheap used leafs. To net it out it seems inconclusive at best that the new battery 24kwh is any better, or the 30kwh either for that matter. Small sample size and extrapolation from the results so far. I'm starting to think if we do make a move on a leaf it better be damn cheap, with low expectations for range holding up.

The other conclusion is that TomT seems to be migrating towards the Volt, and I'm wondering if I would be better served by that strategy. I talked to a Tesla owner at lunch who said he goes on long trips a lot and said he kind of wished he had gone with a Volt. I'm not expecting to find one of those used for $8k though, so the picking through the leaf dustbin will go on a bit longer. There's a used lot not too far from me that has about 20 of them sitting around.

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:53 pm
by dm33
LeftieBiker wrote:They seem to have made an improvement (of some sort) in the pack that was implemented in April of 2013. Leafs built from January through March of 2013 still lose multiple bars, while those made from April on lose mainly no bars*, or one bar...

* The SOH/capacity still declines, but most are still above 86%.
I agree with this completely. I'm in the unique position to have had both an early and late year 2013 leaf SV. The early one was made around March. Within 6000 miles it had dropped to 88% capacity in a fairly consistent decline. I'm sure it would have soon lost a bar had it not been totaled.

Our replacement leaf was made in October. It now has almost 37,000 miles and it running around 89% capacity, which it has reported for a long time so I'm not sure how long until it loses a bar. It might go another 12,000 miles. Degredation slowed considerably after some initial loss. It sometimes reports 91% but I think that's wrong. I still sometimes see 95 miles on the GOM when charged to 100% not even with Eco on.

Alas, we are turning this car in any day now having purchased a new ICE.

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:08 pm
by LTLFTcomposite
^^^ What is the build month/year on the doorjamb sticker on the one you have now?

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:59 pm
by Valdemar
The final class action lawsuit letter that included the free charging card from Nissan contains this passage:

"...if your 2011 and/or 2012 Nissan LEAF experiences capacity loss below nine bars of capacity within 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever occurs first, and you bring your car to an authorized Nissan dealership, the dealer will replace the vehicle's battery, with the newly developed battery currently used in 2015 model LEAF vehicles that is intended to make the battery more durable in extremely hot climates..."

This I think is the first written confirmation that the 2015 tech is "intended" to be more heat tolerant. But it seems that if this intention has any real life implications remains to be seen.

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:32 pm
by DaveEV
Valdemar wrote:Still, it appears to be an improvement over 2011/12 packs for Phoenix.
Yeah, almost 27 months in Phoenix and no bars lost? I live in San Diego and here's how long it took me to lose bars:

Bar 1: 27 months (2 summers)
Bar 2: 41 months (3 summers, 14 months)
Bar 3: 51 months (4 summers, 10 months)
Bar 4: ?? months

So yeah, it's definitely holding up better than the original packs if a Phoenix pack goes 27 months without losing a bar.

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:05 am
by DaveinOlyWA
turbo2ltr wrote:So I've been way out of the loop with this forum and Leaf news in general.

I turned in my 2011 after 3 years and it was down several capacity bars. I got a 2013 to replace it (in Dec 2013) and (correct me if I'm wrong) that pack was the "improved" pack, but not the newer lizzard pack?

you are not wrong and we need to understand that small tweaks to the chemistry is not limited to MY releases. It is an ongoing process which would imply that the later the car, the better the battery pack. Now all of this might not even qualify as baby steps but the one thing that is sure is that Nissan is not done or even taking short breaks on their better battery quest.

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:38 am
by lorenfb
DaveinOlyWA wrote: you are not wrong and we need to understand that small tweaks to the chemistry is not limited to MY releases. It is an ongoing process which would imply that the later the car, the better the battery pack. Now all of this might even qualify as baby steps but the one thing that is sure is that Nissan is not done or even taking short breaks on their better battery quest.
Your battery capacity at 32K miles versus my 2013 (31.5K miles) at about the same delivery time (mine late 11/2013)
has almost an additional 10 Ahr of capacity (mine @ 53 Ahr). Although your production number is about 6K units
later, that's very strange! Still no bar losses yet, i.e. fingers crossed at every start button push. First bar does
drop at 49 Ahr while driving.

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:51 am
by DaveinOlyWA
lorenfb wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote: you are not wrong and we need to understand that small tweaks to the chemistry is not limited to MY releases. It is an ongoing process which would imply that the later the car, the better the battery pack. Now all of this might even qualify as baby steps but the one thing that is sure is that Nissan is not done or even taking short breaks on their better battery quest.
Your battery capacity at 32K miles versus my 2013 (31.5K miles) at about the same delivery time (mine late 11/2013)
has almost an additional 10 Ahr of capacity (mine @ 53 Ahr). Although your production number is about 6K units
later, that's very strange!
oh... I suppose its not a good time to mention my ahr was 64.45 this morning?...