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Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:54 am
by Rebel44
And **** like this is why I dont plan to ever* buy EV without battery TMS - its just not worth the risk.

* unless we get 200K miles / 8 years / 85% capacity warranty

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:20 am
by DaveinOlyWA
well, looks like certain areas simply will not do with TMS. its an added expense I don't need so make it an option Nissan. FYI; I lived in AZ back in the 80's when it was "cooler" and car batteries did not last 2 years. this was back in the "top it off with distilled water" days. Went thru close to a gallon a month or so I think. didn't really help

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:00 pm
by GetOffYourGas
DaveinOlyWA wrote:well, looks like certain areas simply will not do with TMS. its an added expense I don't need so make it an option Nissan.
I likely don't need TMS either, although my summers get a little hotter than yours. But I don't think that TMS is the sort of thing that anyone will provide as an option. They'll likely either engineer it in always or never. So your options are more likely something like a Focus EV with TMS or a Leaf without it.

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:13 pm
by DaveinOlyWA
GetOffYourGas wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:well, looks like certain areas simply will not do with TMS. its an added expense I don't need so make it an option Nissan.
I likely don't need TMS either, although my summers get a little hotter than yours. But I don't think that TMS is the sort of thing that anyone will provide as an option. They'll likely either engineer it in always or never. So your options are more likely something like a Focus EV with TMS or a Leaf without it.
I know this is an extreme example but i recently read about a FFE user complaining because he had so little range left after his TMS "took its share" this is something I could not accept. I am ok with wearing a coat, hat or whatever I need to get an extra 5 miles of range. IOW; I'd rather leave the battery usage decisions to me.

now design a customizable TMS that allows me to direct power to whatever as I see fit, then I would be interested in hearing more of that or wait until we have 40-50 kwh to play with then I would be more ok with sending 10 kwh to the TMS but until then...

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:26 pm
by finman100
uh...I don't think the lack of Leaf TMS has much to do with wearing a hat. I think the big issue is still dissipating the heat FROM the battery, not using the heater (resistive or heat pump).

I'm in the PNW so TMS talk is nothing I know about, haha.

Having visited my relatives in Phoenix...I KNOW that dissipating heat is an issue! I mean, they wear hats when it dips below 70 degrees F. I feel for ANYTHING (persons or machines) that have to withstand the high temps down there.

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:00 pm
by DaveinOlyWA
finman100 wrote:uh...I don't think the lack of Leaf TMS has much to do with wearing a hat. I think the big issue is still dissipating the heat FROM the battery, not using the heater (resistive or heat pump).

I'm in the PNW so TMS talk is nothing I know about, haha.

Having visited my relatives in Phoenix...I KNOW that dissipating heat is an issue! I mean, they wear hats when it dips below 70 degrees F. I feel for ANYTHING (persons or machines) that have to withstand the high temps down there.
well TMS also includes cooling. I guess we should find out what the overhead cost is for that in Phoenix

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:59 pm
by Evoforce
Here are some statistics for Leaf 2 (Lizard Battery) for the past 14 months.

Dec 18th 2014 install.------ 100% SOH

Jan 2015 100% SOH

Feb 100% SOH

March 100% SOH

April 100% SOH

May 100% SOH

Jun 100% SOH

July 7th------100% SOH

Aug 11th------99% SOH-------1% loss-----Total running loss1%

Aug 25th------97% SOH-------2% loss-----Total running loss 3%

Sept 8th-------95% SOH-------2% loss-----Total running loss 5%

Oct 9th--------94% SOH--------1% loss-----Total running loss 6%

Nov 10th------93% SOH-------1% loss-----Total running loss 7%

Nov 26th------92% SOH-------1% loss------Total running loss 8%

Dec 9th--------89% SOH-------3% loss------Total running loss 11%
======================================================== 1 year mark 11% Total
Jan 11th 2016---89% SOH----0% loss-----Total running loss 11%

Jan 21st--------88% SOH-------1% loss-----Total running loss 12%

Feb 12th-------87% SOH-------1% loss-----Total running loss 13% at 14 months.

March 15------88% SOH--------0% loss----Total running loss 12% at 15 months.

May 6th--------90% SOH--------0% loss----Total running loss 10% at 17 months.

June 21st-------91% SOH--------0% loss----Total running loss 9% at 18 months

It stayed at 100% SOH for close to 7 months then dropped an average of almost 2% per month

(Leaf 2) is on track to lose 1st bar May-June 2016 at 85% SOH

Based on these stats of losing 2% per month, the car will lose 2nd bar Sept.

It will lose the 3rd bar January 2017.

It will lose the 4th bar April-June 2017.


I appear to have been too optimistic on my previous predictions because of the 6.5 months that showed 100% SOH before dropping like a rock to an averaged 11% loss for the first year. Having burned through that initial pack headroom for 7 months I can only expect to continue to lose 2% per month on average. That puts me at 12(ish) months from this March to hit 8 bars. It SUCKS. The battery will only be 2.3ish years old... My other car (Leaf 1) previously (non lizard) dropped from 10 bars to 8 bars in 9 months on the original battery (Feb 28-November 25). I was really counting on these Lizard batteries to be heat tolerant with better durability. I am disappointed... I talked to a Tesla Roadster owner a few years ago, and he was losing 2% capacity per year. Sheesh! These Leaf lizard batteries need to be better. Either I need to take the time to engineer something (no time) or find cars built with more durable batteries.

Edit: From a low of 87% SOH in Feb 2016, it has risen back to 91% SOH in June 2016.

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:32 am
by GetOffYourGas
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
well TMS also includes cooling. I guess we should find out what the overhead cost is for that in Phoenix
Forgoing a TMS in Phoenix because of the extra energy consumption would seem to be penny wise / pound foolish.

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:32 am
by Stanton
Evoforce wrote:Here are some statistics for Leaf 2 (Lizard Battery) for the past 14 months.
.
.[edit]
.
It stayed at 100% SOH for close to 7 months then dropped an average of almost 2% per month

(Leaf 2) is on track to lose 1st bar March-April 2016 at 85% SOH

Based on these stats of losing 2% per month, the car will lose 2nd bar July-August.

It will lose the 3rd bar November-December 2016.

It will lose the 4th bar Feb- March 2017
Very interesting! I suspected the "hidden capacity" (above the 66 AHr that 2011/2012 Leafs can "see") would provide a honeymoon period for new owners, but I didn't expect to see your SOH continue to drop in the winter months (although I know winter in Arizona is a relative term). It will be very interesting to see if my battery stats (via LeafDD) follow a similar pattern later this year.

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:13 pm
by xcopy
That's very interesting. Thank you for sharing. I purchased a 2015 Leaf and have been driving it since June 2015. So it shows your SOC dropped to 97% on the 8th month.

I'm showing the same thing. My SOC is at 97.3% today and it's also 8 month in. Up to a month ago, it was showing anywhere between 99.7 ~ 102% SOC every month. So potentially I'm looking at a 1~2% loss every month starting now?. :cry:

This is in Vancouver, BC, Canada where the climate is quite moderate.

Evoforce wrote:Here are some statistics for Leaf 2 (Lizard Battery) for the past 14 months.

Dec 18th 2014 install.------ 100% SOH

Jan 2015 100% SOH

Feb 100% SOH

March 100% SOH

April 100% SOH

May 100% SOH

Jun 100% SOH

July 7th------100% SOH

Aug 11th------99% SOH-------1% loss-----Total running loss1%

Aug 25th------97% SOH-------2% loss-----Total running loss 3%

Sept 8th-------95% SOH-------2% loss-----Total running loss 5%

Oct 9th--------94% SOH--------1% loss-----Total running loss 6%

Nov 10th------93% SOH-------1% loss-----Total running loss 7%

Nov 26th------92% SOH-------1% loss------Total running loss 8%

Dec 9th--------89% SOH-------3% loss------Total running loss 11%
======================================================== 1 year mark 11% Total
Jan 11th 2016---89% SOH----0% loss------Total running loss 11%

Jan 21st--------88% SOH--------1% loss-----Total running loss 12%

Feb 12th-------87% SOH--------1% loss-----Total running loss 13% at 14 months.




It stayed at 100% SOH for close to 7 months then dropped an average of almost 2% per month

(Leaf 2) is on track to lose 1st bar March-April 2016 at 85% SOH

Based on these stats of losing 2% per month, the car will lose 2nd bar July-August.

It will lose the 3rd bar November-December 2016.

It will lose the 4th bar Feb- March 2017



I appear to have been too optimistic on my previous predictions because of the 6.5 months that showed 100% SOH before dropping like a rock to an averaged 11% loss for the first year. Having burned through that initial pack headroom for 7 months I can only expect to continue to lose 2% per month on average. That puts me at 11(ish) months from this March to hit 8 bars. It SUCKS. The battery will only be 2.3 years old... My other car (Leaf 1) previously (non lizard) dropped from 10 bars to 8 bars in 7 months on the original battery (April 28-November 25). I was really counting on these Lizard batteries to be heat tolerant with better durability. I am disappointed... I talked to a Tesla Roadster owner a few years ago, and he was losing 2% capacity per year. Sheesh! These Leaf lizard batteries need to be better. Either I need to take the time to engineer something (no time) or find cars built with more durable batteries.