tkdbrusco
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Delivery Date: 31 Aug 2014
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Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:08 pm

I'm at 18,400mi on my 2015 S, and it was MFG in 4/14, so likely one of the first off the line. This also means that it has now been through two summers in the relatively warm San Jose, CA area. My most recent 100% reading was 283 Gids, 21.93 kWh, 97.14 SOC, 91.05 SOH, 93.07 HX, 60.32 AHR, and 78 degrees average temp. These show some degradation since new, about 3% based on Gids, although who knows how much capacity was hidden? none the less, I'm pretty happy with this. At this rate I'll likely still have all 12 bars at 45K miles (around the time I'll try and sell it).
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
www.theevconsultant.com

leafkabob
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:47 am
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2015
Leaf Number: 1827
Location: Central Phoenix

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:55 pm

TickTock wrote:
drees wrote:Good stuff! Have you done any turtle to 100% charges and measured energy from the wall on the new pack?

IIRC you had that kind of data with your old pack...
Yeah. Gathering much more data but didn't want to clutter the graph. My new pack was reading 66.14Ah, 100%SOH, about 102Hx (this bounced around a bit) and it took 25kWh from the wall to bring it from turtle to full charge (94%, 284 gids). i don't have this data on the old pack unfortunately. Last measurment on 10/1/2015, I read 62.77Ah, 98%SOH, 94Hx and it took 23.7kWh to bring it to full charge (92%, 273 gids). So depending on how you measure, it has degraded either 2% (SOH), 5% (AH), 4% (gids) or 3% (from the wall). Compare to 11% (gids) of the original pack on October 2011 (since they updated the algorithm to reduce the seasonal variation in the gids, I did not use the low value recorded in October, but rather fit a trend line and used the value from that (250 gids)).
Tick Tock, are you doing anything differently this time around with regard to parking your car or charging your car? I recently purchased a used 2011 with a new lizard pack, and I'm afraid to put it in the garage at night until the garage cools down. I recall you talking about adding a swamp cooler to your garage. Did you have that the first summer of 2011?

I recently put a max/min thermometer in my garage and can read the temps from my kitchen. It is surprising that when the daytime highs were 105F, my detached, uninsulated garage didn't drop below 100 until 9 PM. Thankfully it has cooled off from a month ago, but I'm still very nervous about putting the car in the garage, as I am convinced doing so in the summers of 2011 and 2012 helped expedite my first battery's degradation. Perhaps I'm worrying needlessly, but I'm curious as to whether you are doing anything different now from 2011.
Kelly

2011 White SL-e (sold back to Nissan on 01/10/2013)
2011Silver SL with new lizard battery purchased used on 9/9/2015
2018 Tesla Model 3 received 4/27/2018

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DaveEV
Posts: 6251
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:09 pm

TickTock wrote:So depending on how you measure, it has degraded either 2% (SOH), 5% (AH), 4% (gids) or 3% (from the wall).
I am inclined to believe the energy from the wall measurements more than any other. It's really the only independent tool we easily have access to as an end user. Unfortunately, there is a decent amount of variance as shown by your data and one hates to fully cycle the battery unless they need to, but a trend line ought to smooth it out enough to see what's going on.

Doesn't your data show more like 2 kWh loss from the wall or 8% (2 kWh / 25 kWh) rather than 3%? I ran a linear trend on your data and that fit.
fooljoe wrote:Some recent reports of "new" 2015 Leafs starting out with 5-10% degradation have me a little concerned that the lizard pack won't be all it's cracked up to be.
Because of this high amount of variance, I don't have a lot of faith in BMS measurements in 2013+ LEAFs.

Nissan's long capacity warranty on the new 30 kWh packs shows just how well they trust the 30 kWh chemistry over the 24 kWh lizard chemistry. You probably can still expect the lizard pack to lose 30% capacity not too long after 5 years / 60 k miles in the hottest climates.

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TickTock
Posts: 1701
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 3626
Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
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Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:23 pm

leafkabob wrote: Tick Tock, are you doing anything differently this time around with regard to parking your car or charging your car? I recently purchased a used 2011 with a new lizard pack, and I'm afraid to put it in the garage at night until the garage cools down. I recall you talking about adding a swamp cooler to your garage. Did you have that the first summer of 2011?

I recently put a max/min thermometer in my garage and can read the temps from my kitchen. It is surprising that when the daytime highs were 105F, my detached, uninsulated garage didn't drop below 100 until 9 PM. Thankfully it has cooled off from a month ago, but I'm still very nervous about putting the car in the garage, as I am convinced doing so in the summers of 2011 and 2012 helped expedite my first battery's degradation. Perhaps I'm worrying needlessly, but I'm curious as to whether you are doing anything different now from 2011.
Quite right. I do have a swamp cooler now in my garage so not a perfect experiment. However, I really don't think that is a significant contributor since I had that cooler in last summer, too, and didn't really see any slow in the decay rate. Also, I always charged using an end timer to end in the morning so it never started before midnight (both the old and the new battery).

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TickTock
Posts: 1701
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Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 3626
Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
Contact: Website

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:34 pm

drees wrote: I am inclined to believe the energy from the wall measurements more than any other. It's really the only independent tool we easily have access to as an end user. Unfortunately, there is a decent amount of variance as shown by your data and one hates to fully cycle the battery unless they need to, but a trend line ought to smooth it out enough to see what's going on.

Doesn't your data show more like 2 kWh loss from the wall or 8% (2 kWh / 25 kWh) rather than 3%? I ran a linear trend on your data and that fit.
I would agree on the wall measurement being most reliable except I don't know how much balancing impacts the draw. I see a fair amount of variation on that, too, and suspect balancing may be playing a role.
I got 3% by taking (23.7/.92)/(25/.94) but I think a linear trend is probably more accurate since there is a fair amount of variation so you may be right - certainly within any error bars I would choose to put on the numbers.

Evoforce
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:10 am

Lizard battery and original battery in second car are both degrading the same so far this year. Neither car is parked in a hot garage. 9 bar car is parked outside on concrete driveway or asphalt parking structure. Lizard is parked over grass yard or open parking lots. Lizard has gone a little less mileage. The rest of the year will be interesting to see if they still track the same. I hope not. Time will tell.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

LeftieBiker
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Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:09 am

I recently put a max/min thermometer in my garage and can read the temps from my kitchen. It is surprising that when the daytime highs were 105F, my detached, uninsulated garage didn't drop below 100 until 9 PM. Thankfully it has cooled off from a month ago, but I'm still very nervous about putting the car in the garage, as I am convinced doing so in the summers of 2011 and 2012 helped expedite my first battery's degradation.
If you can just power-ventilate your garage, with hot air exiting at the top and cooler air entering low on the shaded side, that should by itself help a lot.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

leafkabob
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:47 am
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2015
Leaf Number: 1827
Location: Central Phoenix

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:22 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
I recently put a max/min thermometer in my garage and can read the temps from my kitchen. It is surprising that when the daytime highs were 105F, my detached, uninsulated garage didn't drop below 100 until 9 PM. Thankfully it has cooled off from a month ago, but I'm still very nervous about putting the car in the garage, as I am convinced doing so in the summers of 2011 and 2012 helped expedite my first battery's degradation.
If you can just power-ventilate your garage, with hot air exiting at the top and cooler air entering low on the shaded side, that should by itself help a lot.
Yep. That's my plan. ;)
Kelly

2011 White SL-e (sold back to Nissan on 01/10/2013)
2011Silver SL with new lizard battery purchased used on 9/9/2015
2018 Tesla Model 3 received 4/27/2018

Evoforce
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:16 pm

drees wrote:
TickTock wrote:So depending on how you measure, it has degraded either 2% (SOH), 5% (AH), 4% (gids) or 3% (from the wall).
I am inclined to believe the energy from the wall measurements more than any other. It's really the only independent tool we easily have access to as an end user. Unfortunately, there is a decent amount of variance as shown by your data and one hates to fully cycle the battery unless they need to, but a trend line ought to smooth it out enough to see what's going on.

Doesn't your data show more like 2 kWh loss from the wall or 8% (2 kWh / 25 kWh) rather than 3%? I ran a linear trend on your data and that fit.
fooljoe wrote:Some recent reports of "new" 2015 Leafs starting out with 5-10% degradation have me a little concerned that the lizard pack won't be all it's cracked up to be.
Because of this high amount of variance, I don't have a lot of faith in BMS measurements in 2013+ LEAFs.

Nissan's long capacity warranty on the new 30 kWh packs shows just how well they trust the 30 kWh chemistry over the 24 kWh lizard chemistry. You probably can still expect the lizard pack to lose 30% capacity not too long after 5 years / 60 k miles in the hottest climates.

I have had the same degradation on my 9 bar car as the lizard car. At this point, I have to agree that the chemistry improvement of the 2015 battery may not lead to much better results. My results, so far, are tracking that way.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

aarond12
Posts: 383
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:42 am
Delivery Date: 17 Oct 2015
Leaf Number: 311353
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:56 am

I'm not the data-junkie that many of you are, but I do have LeafSpy. For giggles, I checked my car just now. It was purchased in September 2014 (it's a 2015 model) by someone and returned the following month. I purchased it "used" with 225 miles in October 2014, meaning the car is one year old now.

LeafSpy reports 278 GIDs (98.9% battery health) with a state of charge of 96.4%. 21.5kWh remain, and at 4.4 miles/kWh, it says I have 89.9 miles to reserve. I currently have ~7800 miles on the car. Given that my commute is 12 miles each way (24 miles total -- all city driving), this car will continue to serve my needs quite well for years to come.

I also recently broke my GOM record the other day. After a full charge, I set it on ECO (I drive exclusively in "B" mode), and the GOM reported 119 miles. I don't hypermile it and I accelerate at 3-4 (occasionally 5) dots, so I'm not holding up traffic.

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