Evoforce
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:24 pm

Xcopy, I have to believe you meant SOH (state of health) and not SOC (state of charge). I have made the same typo in the past and might goof again too! I sure hope that you end up with better stats than I have, especially since I represent what appears to be an extreme climate for a Nissan battery.

Other manufacturers have done better addressing heat and so hot climates like Arizona are not an extreme degradation to their batteries. I want to be able to say (and believe) that my Nissan Car can handle hot and cold as well or better than competing manufacturers. We really like our two Leafs in every way except for the battery.

Nissan when are you going to fix this extreme battery degradation problem? So far, even their latest proposed 60kWh battery from what has been published doesn't deal with hot ambient temperature. Their cathode changes appear to allow for faster charging and thus probably leads to less heat at charging but still do not go far enough to keep their pack cool in any other known way...
Last edited by Evoforce on Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15639
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:31 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
well TMS also includes cooling. I guess we should find out what the overhead cost is for that in Phoenix
Forgoing a TMS in Phoenix because of the extra energy consumption would seem to be penny wise / pound foolish.
my point exactly but if we knew what other TMS were using like the Focus EV, then it would be easier to determine what size battery would be needed to provide that overhead and give the range desired.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 19,653 mi, 93.47% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tkdbrusco
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:46 am
Delivery Date: 31 Aug 2014
Contact: Website Facebook Twitter

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:05 pm

Evoforce wrote:Xcopy, I have to believe you meant SOH (stat of health) and not SOC (state of charge). I have made the same typo in the past and might goof again too! I sure hope that you end up with better stats than I have, especially since I represent what appears to be an extreme climate for a Nissan battery.

Other manufacturers have done better addressing heat and so hot climates like Arizona are not an extreme degradation to their batteries. I want to be able to say (and believe) that my Nissan Car can handle hot and cold as well or better than competing manufacturers. We really like our two Leafs in every way except for the battery.

Nissan when are you going to fix this extreme battery degradation problem? So far, even their latest proposed 60kWh battery from what has been published doesn't deal with hot ambient temperature. Their cathode changes appear to allow for faster charging and thus probably leads to less heat at charging but still do not go far enough to keep their pack cool in any other known way...
I wonder if their thoughts on the TMS is that the doubling of size of the pack with by cycle rate decrease the degradation by 50% compared to the 30kwh 2016 Leaf even if they acknowledge heat as an issue. Let's assuming that the 80%/100K warranty is a big enough buffer on the 30kwh leaf for even the hottest climates, this means that most 2016 30kwh leafs will still have 12 capacity bars after 100K miles, assuming that the same algorithm of 15.5% loss holds true for the 2016 cars. So if you know that 20% capacity loss in 100K miles for the 30kwh pack is your worst cast scenario, you can assume that you'd see no more than 10% capacity loss over 100K miles with a pack of double the size. This means that they have almost no fear that any person who drives a Leaf 2 (with a 60kwh pack) even in a hot climate, would ever lose their first capacity bar by 100k miles. So basically if a TMS costs you an extra $500-750 per car, why would you pay to install one if you were Nissan. Sure, the TMS would likely increase the longevity of the battery pack, but if you examine the cost to include it and the desire to stay competitive with Tesla and Chevy on price, you can't afford the extra expense.
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
www.theevconsultant.com

Evoforce
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:33 pm

tkdbrusco wrote:
Evoforce wrote:Xcopy, I have to believe you meant SOH (stat of health) and not SOC (state of charge). I have made the same typo in the past and might goof again too! I sure hope that you end up with better stats than I have, especially since I represent what appears to be an extreme climate for a Nissan battery.

Other manufacturers have done better addressing heat and so hot climates like Arizona are not an extreme degradation to their batteries. I want to be able to say (and believe) that my Nissan Car can handle hot and cold as well or better than competing manufacturers. We really like our two Leafs in every way except for the battery.

Nissan when are you going to fix this extreme battery degradation problem? So far, even their latest proposed 60kWh battery from what has been published doesn't deal with hot ambient temperature. Their cathode changes appear to allow for faster charging and thus probably leads to less heat at charging but still do not go far enough to keep their pack cool in any other known way...
I wonder if their thoughts on the TMS is that the doubling of size of the pack with by cycle rate decrease the degradation by 50% compared to the 30kwh 2016 Leaf even if they acknowledge heat as an issue. Let's assuming that the 80%/100K warranty is a big enough buffer on the 30kwh leaf for even the hottest climates, this means that most 2016 30kwh leafs will still have 12 capacity bars after 100K miles, assuming that the same algorithm of 15.5% loss holds true for the 2016 cars. So if you know that 20% capacity loss in 100K miles for the 30kwh pack is your worst cast scenario, you can assume that you'd see no more than 10% capacity loss over 100K miles with a pack of double the size. This means that they have almost no fear that any person who drives a Leaf 2 (with a 60kwh pack) even in a hot climate, would ever lose their first capacity bar by 100k miles. So basically if a TMS costs you an extra $500-750 per car, why would you pay to install one if you were Nissan. Sure, the TMS would likely increase the longevity of the battery pack, but if you examine the cost to include it and the desire to stay competitive with Tesla and Chevy on price, you can't afford the extra expense.

I haven't even tried to crunch the numbers on what the (best guess) expectations would be for a 60kWh battery for hot climates.

Well I have to go right this minute, but I have opened the box and peered inside... So I started a thread "What expectations or concerns do we have of a Nissan 60kWh battery". So we don't get off topic here.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

Rebel44
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:20 am

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:45 am

tkdbrusco wrote:
Evoforce wrote:Xcopy, I have to believe you meant SOH (stat of health) and not SOC (state of charge). I have made the same typo in the past and might goof again too! I sure hope that you end up with better stats than I have, especially since I represent what appears to be an extreme climate for a Nissan battery.

Other manufacturers have done better addressing heat and so hot climates like Arizona are not an extreme degradation to their batteries. I want to be able to say (and believe) that my Nissan Car can handle hot and cold as well or better than competing manufacturers. We really like our two Leafs in every way except for the battery.

Nissan when are you going to fix this extreme battery degradation problem? So far, even their latest proposed 60kWh battery from what has been published doesn't deal with hot ambient temperature. Their cathode changes appear to allow for faster charging and thus probably leads to less heat at charging but still do not go far enough to keep their pack cool in any other known way...
I wonder if their thoughts on the TMS is that the doubling of size of the pack with by cycle rate decrease the degradation by 50% compared to the 30kwh 2016 Leaf even if they acknowledge heat as an issue. Let's assuming that the 80%/100K warranty is a big enough buffer on the 30kwh leaf for even the hottest climates, this means that most 2016 30kwh leafs will still have 12 capacity bars after 100K miles, assuming that the same algorithm of 15.5% loss holds true for the 2016 cars. So if you know that 20% capacity loss in 100K miles for the 30kwh pack is your worst cast scenario, you can assume that you'd see no more than 10% capacity loss over 100K miles with a pack of double the size. This means that they have almost no fear that any person who drives a Leaf 2 (with a 60kwh pack) even in a hot climate, would ever lose their first capacity bar by 100k miles. So basically if a TMS costs you an extra $500-750 per car, why would you pay to install one if you were Nissan. Sure, the TMS would likely increase the longevity of the battery pack, but if you examine the cost to include it and the desire to stay competitive with Tesla and Chevy on price, you can't afford the extra expense.
Problem is, that if such calculations prove to be incorrect, it could easily result in very expensive PR nightmare....

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15639
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:26 am

tkdbrusco wrote:
Evoforce wrote:Xcopy, I have to believe you meant SOH (stat of health) and not SOC (state of charge). I have made the same typo in the past and might goof again too! I sure hope that you end up with better stats than I have, especially since I represent what appears to be an extreme climate for a Nissan battery.

Other manufacturers have done better addressing heat and so hot climates like Arizona are not an extreme degradation to their batteries. I want to be able to say (and believe) that my Nissan Car can handle hot and cold as well or better than competing manufacturers. We really like our two Leafs in every way except for the battery.

Nissan when are you going to fix this extreme battery degradation problem? So far, even their latest proposed 60kWh battery from what has been published doesn't deal with hot ambient temperature. Their cathode changes appear to allow for faster charging and thus probably leads to less heat at charging but still do not go far enough to keep their pack cool in any other known way...
I wonder if their thoughts on the TMS is that the doubling of size of the pack with by cycle rate decrease the degradation by 50% compared to the 30kwh 2016 Leaf even if they acknowledge heat as an issue. Let's assuming that the 80%/100K warranty is a big enough buffer on the 30kwh leaf for even the hottest climates, this means that most 2016 30kwh leafs will still have 12 capacity bars after 100K miles, assuming that the same algorithm of 15.5% loss holds true for the 2016 cars. So if you know that 20% capacity loss in 100K miles for the 30kwh pack is your worst cast scenario, you can assume that you'd see no more than 10% capacity loss over 100K miles with a pack of double the size. This means that they have almost no fear that any person who drives a Leaf 2 (with a 60kwh pack) even in a hot climate, would ever lose their first capacity bar by 100k miles. So basically if a TMS costs you an extra $500-750 per car, why would you pay to install one if you were Nissan. Sure, the TMS would likely increase the longevity of the battery pack, but if you examine the cost to include it and the desire to stay competitive with Tesla and Chevy on price, you can't afford the extra expense.
a possible problem arises here (in the land of battery nirvana) with simply time. We have one guy who went over 70,000 miles on a 2011 without losing a bar verses one who lost their first bar before the "bumper to bumper" mileage was used up. Difference is the one exceeded 70,000 miles in slightly less than two years while the bar loser took almost 5 years. so its not only cycling, its time. now time adds all kinds of stuff including 2 more Summers. Now, the Summers around here have been mild including 2013 that was downright coldish. But 2015 was one of the warmest here in decades (keeping in mind that "warm" is anything above 80º) so heat "could" be factor even in low levels due simply to calendar life and how is that to be determined?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 19,653 mi, 93.47% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tkdbrusco
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:46 am
Delivery Date: 31 Aug 2014
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Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:54 am

The capacity warranty will also have a time limit on it, so either way I think that if you see Nissan announce a Leaf 2 without a TMS, they have probably done some cost/benefit analysis of the situation and found that it wasn't worth the expense to put in a TMS. Even if they find that the batteries are degrading faster than other TMS cars, they likely have plenty of time before this becomes a PR issue. If they continue to drop the first capacity bar at 15% loss and the battery degrades at less than that rate for 6+ years or 100K miles, the issue wouldn't really rear its head until about 2023 or so. At that point all of the tax credits are gone and the market is flush with EVs from every manufacturer. I bet they are analyzing the heck out of 2015 and 2016 MY cars and seeing what kind of impact the new chemistry is having and extrapolating that out in the lap or with computerized models. If they find they can keep that first bar from dropping with a 60kwh pack before 100K miles, I doubt you'll see a TMS system.
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
www.theevconsultant.com

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15639
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:01 am

tkdbrusco wrote:The capacity warranty will also have a time limit on it, so either way I think that if you see Nissan announce a Leaf 2 without a TMS, they have probably done some cost/benefit analysis of the situation and found that it wasn't worth the expense to put in a TMS. Even if they find that the batteries are degrading faster than other TMS cars, they likely have plenty of time before this becomes a PR issue. If they continue to drop the first capacity bar at 15% loss and the battery degrades at less than that rate for 6+ years or 100K miles, the issue wouldn't really rear its head until about 2023 or so. At that point all of the tax credits are gone and the market is flush with EVs from every manufacturer. I bet they are analyzing the heck out of 2015 and 2016 MY cars and seeing what kind of impact the new chemistry is having and extrapolating that out in the lap or with computerized models. If they find they can keep that first bar from dropping with a 60kwh pack before 100K miles, I doubt you'll see a TMS system.
I agree with the minimal benefits of TMS but for severe areas, it should be an option. Realistically; I think the better way to go is simply beef up the battery options. it is past time for multiple pack sizes. It amazes me that the industry is taking so long to grasp this concept especially since its been their primary marketing tool for decades.

how many engine choices? transmission choices? battery pack sizes should have been the next obvious thing
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 19,653 mi, 93.47% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Firetruck41
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:36 am
Leaf Number: 408264
Location: SW Washington State

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:08 pm

tkdbrusco wrote:I wonder if their thoughts on the TMS is that the doubling of size of the pack with by cycle rate decrease the degradation by 50% compared to the 30kwh 2016 Leaf even if they acknowledge heat as an issue. Let's assuming that the 80%/100K warranty is a big enough buffer on the 30kwh leaf for even the hottest climates, this means that most 2016 30kwh leafs will still have 12 capacity bars after 100K miles, assuming that the same algorithm of 15.5% loss holds true for the 2016 cars. So if you know that 20% capacity loss in 100K miles for the 30kwh pack is your worst cast scenario, you can assume that you'd see no more than 10% capacity loss over 100K miles with a pack of double the size. This means that they have almost no fear that any person who drives a Leaf 2 (with a 60kwh pack) even in a hot climate, would ever lose their first capacity bar by 100k miles. So basically if a TMS costs you an extra $500-750 per car, why would you pay to install one if you were Nissan. Sure, the TMS would likely increase the longevity of the battery pack, but if you examine the cost to include it and the desire to stay competitive with Tesla and Chevy on price, you can't afford the extra expense.
Unless I missed something, the warranty is 8yrs (not 80%)/100k mi for the 2016 30kwh pack until you lose the 4th bar. That is down to 66% by 100k, not 80%. So that is quite a difference from the calculations above...
8/2015- New to me 12bar 2013 SV w/QC package and 37k miles

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15639
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:43 pm

Firetruck41 wrote:
tkdbrusco wrote:I wonder if their thoughts on the TMS is that the doubling of size of the pack with by cycle rate decrease the degradation by 50% compared to the 30kwh 2016 Leaf even if they acknowledge heat as an issue. Let's assuming that the 80%/100K warranty is a big enough buffer on the 30kwh leaf for even the hottest climates, this means that most 2016 30kwh leafs will still have 12 capacity bars after 100K miles, assuming that the same algorithm of 15.5% loss holds true for the 2016 cars. So if you know that 20% capacity loss in 100K miles for the 30kwh pack is your worst cast scenario, you can assume that you'd see no more than 10% capacity loss over 100K miles with a pack of double the size. This means that they have almost no fear that any person who drives a Leaf 2 (with a 60kwh pack) even in a hot climate, would ever lose their first capacity bar by 100k miles. So basically if a TMS costs you an extra $500-750 per car, why would you pay to install one if you were Nissan. Sure, the TMS would likely increase the longevity of the battery pack, but if you examine the cost to include it and the desire to stay competitive with Tesla and Chevy on price, you can't afford the extra expense.
Unless I missed something, the warranty is 8yrs (not 80%)/100k mi for the 2016 30kwh pack until you lose the 4th bar. That is down to 66% by 100k, not 80%. So that is quite a difference from the calculations above...
you didnt. mileage and time changed but percentage loss did not
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 19,653 mi, 93.47% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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