Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

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i very much appreciate nissan's commitment to EVs. we owners are committed too, and most of us showed that by putting a bet down on the LEAF with a nice bundle of cash.
as i said at a focus group 6 months ago: "i took a leap with the LEAF and bet that it would be as good as it seemed. i knew there was always the possibility that i would look back and go - you were a dummy, man.
so far, that is not the case; not by a long shot.

----
and yes, after listening to the video.
i -- and others -- do want a battery price, installed.
and i do for all the reasons i have stated previously; summed up as, what do i do when my range is limited so i cant do my daily 50-mile roundtrip commute or the once weekly 65-mile roundtrip to the theatre in my LEAF.

thank you for the video. i am astounded, simply astounded, that nissan never thought people would seek to replace the battery to maintain optimum range as it degraded. i am particularly amazed because the warranty is so carefully written to exclude nissan responsibility for range loss.
 
I've always liked Andy Palmer. He may just be blowing smoke up my butt but he seems like a straight shooter. My question would be how do you get from Mark Perry's representations about the battery, which was 70% to 80% capacity after ten years, with this explanation, which is essentially that for 12.5K miles a year you can expect to have 80% of your battery after five years and 70% after ten years? Those are very different standards.

My other observation is that the Leaf would be better at Infiniti dealers because, while the Leaf is not up to the Infiniti standards as far as interiors are concerned, those dealerships would be more comfortable with the average Leaf customer.

Great to finally get some seemingly solid information.
 
thankyouOB said:
i am astounded, simply astounded, that nissan never thought people would seek to replace the battery to maintain optimum range as it degraded. i am particularly amazed because the warranty is so carefully written to exclude nissan responsibility for range loss.

+1

That assumption on the side of Nissan seems a bit out touch. What do they suggest people do (even under ideal conditions) with the car after 5 or 10 years...Throw it away and buy a new one because of the aging battery?
It seems not genuine, coming from an engineer, that age-related degradation (again, lets assume under ideal conditions) would not affect ALL cells, rather than a few. Do they seriously think, that after 10 years I can exchange a bunch of cells and the car will drive like new (range-wise)????
 
First, I think this is a fantastic step in the right direction. We are starting the ship's turn away from the rocks. I will comment on the source of this video; why is Jeff or Chelsea not posting this? What is the source?

I liked the presentation, and further liked the fact that Andy appeared as forthright as the lawyers would let him, without preaching the "all is normal" BS. Obviously, I prefer an engineer spelling things out more than a marketing guy.

I will also make the obvious observation from the data presented; 95% approval rating for LEAF, and 400 LEAFs in Arizona make up 1% of 38,000 LEAFs worldwide. They could pull from that market and not miss a beat.

Anyhoo, thanks Chelsea, Jeff, Andy, and even Gary for posting this.
 
klapauzius said:
That assumption on the side of Nissan seems a bit out touch. What do they suggest people do (even under ideal conditions) with the car after 5 or 10 years...Throw it away and buy a new one because of the aging battery?
It seems not genuine, coming from an engineer, that age-related degradation (again, lets assume under ideal conditions) would not affect ALL cells, rather than a few. Do they seriously think, that after 10 years I can exchange a bunch of cells and the car will drive like new (range-wise)????

Hey, he admitted they didn't foresee that. Lets move on; I truly believe they will have your battery price soon.
 
TonyWilliams said:
First, I think this is a fantastic step in the right direction. We are starting the ship's turn away from the rocks. I will comment on the source of this video; why is Jeff or Chelsea not posting this? What is the source?
Jeff Kulman posted it in the Open Letter thread, grommet linked it in the SF BayLEAFs Facebook page, and OE posted cross-posted it back in MNL. Hope that's good enough forensics for you :)

That said, I agree, it's great to see this video.
 
surfingslovak said:
TonyWilliams said:
First, I think this is a fantastic step in the right direction. We are starting the ship's turn away from the rocks. I will comment on the source of this video; why is Jeff or Chelsea not posting this? What is the source?
Jeff Kulman posted it in the Open Letter thread, grommet linked it in the SF BayLEAFs Facebook page, and OE posted cross-posted it back in MNL. Hope that's good enough forensics for you :)

That said, I agree, it's great to see this video.

Ok, awesome. I know there were questions on the previous open letters, so nice to hear a solid source. I think I'll have a nice glass of merlot to celebrate.
 
Seems odd that early in the video, as others noted, he claims that Nissan never anticipated anyone would seek to replace the battery (other than in-warranty replacement of the pack or individual cells at Nissan's expense), but toward the end, in response to Chelsea's question about an upgrade path for earlier models when a better pack is developed, he segues into a discussion of that possibility.

How could Nissan have failed to consider any customer demand for battery replacement, but apparently gave some thought to a pack upgrade path? Or, was Andy just smoothly improvising in response to the upgrade question?
 
But he still uses those 'conditions' as excuses for battery degradation. We know of several drivers that do not fit into ANY of his conditions because they babied their packs, yet have lost two bars. I just talked to a guy (bought) yesterday who lost his first bar at 8k miles, less than one year, and then lost the second bar 1k miles later. He said he will call Nissan to report both and to get a case number. He's never QCd, drives average speeds, no top offs, etc.
 
I know that Andy said that the norm for the 400 or so Phoenix car is 7.5K miles/year or 20 miles per day. He said that whether the glide path result of 76% should be based on 7.5K miles or something else is another topic of discussion altogether.

Well, I'd like to know if Nissan can project a new glide path in Phoenix based on the 12.5K norm instead of the 7.5K norm. This would be much more apple to apple comparison to see how the heat would effect the AZ glide path. I'm sure it'll be much worse than 76%. Nissan is just very lucky that somehow the AZ norm of the 400 LEAFs is so darn low at 20 miles per day that it helps make the AZ glide path end up at 76% (vs national 80%), which looks better than if the AZ norm has been 12.5K instead of 7.5K.

But if I'm a potential buyer for AZ and my norm is 12.5K miles/year, the 76% based on 7.5K miles/year means nothing to me.

Nissan, please provide me with a projected glide path for AZ based on 12.5K miles per year.
 
TonyWilliams said:
Ok, awesome. I know there were questions on the previous open letters, so nice to hear a solid source. I think I'll have a nice glass of merlot to celebrate.
Ditto, Cheers! Perhaps I can start paying more attention to my real job now.

LEAFfan said:
But he still uses those 'conditions' as excuses for battery degradation. We know of several drivers that do not fit into ANY of his conditions because they babied their packs, yet have lost two bars. I just talked to a guy (bought) yesterday who lost his first bar at 8k miles, less than one year, and then lost the second bar 1k miles later. He said he will call Nissan to report both and to get a case number. He's never QCd, drives average speeds, no top offs, etc.
Good point. I think Andy wanted to compare the predicted average outcome quoted in the manual to the average outcome in Phoenix. It would be good if there was a way to quantify the expected outcome when some of the parameters change, and mileage might be a good place to start.
 
Thank you to Nissan for the video! Thanks to Jeff for posting it in the other thread. This is a step in the right direction.

I don't have much to add other than what would mainly be echoing of comments others have made already (e.g. on 7.5K miles/year, odd that there isn't a price of the whole battery pack, etc.)
 
TonyWilliams said:
klapauzius said:
That assumption on the side of Nissan seems a bit out touch. What do they suggest people do (even under ideal conditions) with the car after 5 or 10 years...Throw it away and buy a new one because of the aging battery?
It seems not genuine, coming from an engineer, that age-related degradation (again, lets assume under ideal conditions) would not affect ALL cells, rather than a few. Do they seriously think, that after 10 years I can exchange a bunch of cells and the car will drive like new (range-wise)????

Hey, he admitted they didn't foresee that. Lets move on; I truly believe they will have your battery price soon.

the point is, tony, that it seems like a half-truth, at best.
 
Good video, thanks...

So Andy knows the Nissan cost of the pack, but it appears there must be some effort undertaken to see what the price would be to the public for a replacement pack...

If the pack was a carpet mat that cost $15.13, then would mark it up and sell it for $24.95. It wouldn't take much time or effort to arrive at that price. No one would balk at a $24.95 price for the mat.

But because the battery is expensive, and the fact that the price is going to take some time to arrive at tells me that the Nissan cost of the pack is high and they have to determine whether they're going to try and sell it at a profit (and make it even higher priced), sell it at cost, or take a loss when selling a few of them to us owners...

Why else would it take so long to arrive at a price?
 
^^^
I'd lean on keeping it separate. This video is separate from the last "open letter" and is being delivered by a different person.
 
Regarding the good will remedy issue that Chelsea asked, Andy basically blew it off by saying that US customers already got 8 year warranty instead of the 5 year warranty in other countries, so he implies that it's already good will enough.

First of all, the 8 year or 5 year warranty is not regarding premature range/capacity loss. It's only regarding battery pack functional failure. So he totally didn't answer Chelsea's question at all. I take his answer to be "there will be no general good will remedy for remaining concerned LEAF owners who are out there, you're already lucky to have 8 year functional warranty".

I can tell Nissan that AS LONG AS there is no general good will remedy for remaining LEAF owners who are concerned, there will continue to be distrust with Nissan and unhappy customers will translate to bad word of mouths and lower sales.

The amount of affected owners may be small, but the fact that Nissan is not going to implement remedy overall means that the level of distrust will continue to be there perpetually, with not just the affected owners, but with EVERYBODY. Nobody would want to recommend the LEAF to anybody anymore if Nissan still refuses to come up with a general good will remedy.
 
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