Why would anyone buy a nissan leaf right now???

GerryAZ said:

I would say the LEAF battery has passive cooling. No energy is wasted running a battery refrigeration system and there is no liquid circulating in the battery compartment so no risk of internal coolant leakage.

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Dave's point was no forced air cooling into the pack either, ambient or cooled. 'Ambient cooling' still gives too much credit, and it is not even true if ambient is warmer than the enclosure.

'Pack temperature follows average daily ambient with 24 - 48 hour delay' describes the LEAF battery temperature behavior.

SageBrush said:

Was a 5 year lease a thing back then ?

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TomT said he had a 5 year lease just today here: https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=606779#p606794

I've not heard of 5 year leases on Leafs but there were offers back in the day (not sure about for '11) about lease extensions. I was in this boat myself when my 2-year Leaf lease was nearing the end:
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16629&p=417729&hilit=cvrp+extension#p417729
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=459373#p459373
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16629&p=420576&hilit=cvrp+extension#p420576

Also, a neighbor two houses away I thought was given some free extra months on his leased Leaf, possibly as a marketing move to see if they wanted to get an '18 when they came out. I'd have to ask him about it again. (edit: Found https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23605 on such a program.)

Anyway, he didn't go for gen 2 Leaf and replaced it with a Bolt (I think a '17). I could see they later replaced it with another identical in color Bolt but newer (temp CA plates, missing buttons on rear door handles so it was a '20+).

If you search the results of https://mynissanleaf.com/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&author_id=606 for extension, it seems TomT got lease extension(s).

SageBrush said:

'Pack temperature follows average daily ambient with 24 - 48 hour delay' describes the LEAF battery temperature behavior.

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As a new Leaf owner, I'm trying to learn the how this pattern operates in my climate.

The highest temperature reading I've seen so far (LeafSpy) was about 92 degrees, and that was immediately after a QC. And yes it took a day or so after that for the temp to get below 80. Otherwise the readings have been about 5-10 degrees above the 24-hour ambient average, usually mid 70's. I keep the Leaf in my garage, where the temperature range is considerably less than if I left it outside.

I'm planning an in-state road trip later this week where I will have to QC once or twice, and intend to watch what happens more closely.

oxothuk said:

I keep the Leaf in my garage

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I doubt your are doing the LEAF a favor in the summer, since it does not benefit as much from the night time outside cooling.

I've been harping for years for people to not cook their LEAFs in garages in the summer but habits are hard to break. I suspect garaging is one of the more important unrecognized causes behind the battery degradation variation we hear about in the same climate.

Unless the garage has an A/C unit that can be run overnight, anyway. I haven't garaged either Leaf through a heatwave yet, but if we get a major one I may. I don't want to lose a bar during my 4 year lease.

SageBrush said:

oxothuk said:

I keep the Leaf in my garage

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I doubt your are doing the LEAF a favor in the summer, since it does not benefit as much from the night time outside cooling.

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But it's also not suffering from the daytime heating it would experience outside - wouldn't that be worse?. The garage has no a/c but it IS insulated and has high ceilings, and as I said the temperature range in the garage is narrower than the range outdoors.

I suppose the ideal practice would be for me to move it outside at sunset and back inside at daybreak but that would be a lot of work and would also interfere with the occasional nights where I need to charge it.

oxothuk said:

SageBrush said:

oxothuk said:

I keep the Leaf in my garage

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I doubt your are doing the LEAF a favor in the summer, since it does not benefit as much from the night time outside cooling.

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But it's also not suffering from the daytime heating it would experience outside - wouldn't that be worse?. The garage has no a/c but it IS insulated and has high ceilings, and as I said the temperature range in the garage is narrower than the range outdoors.

I suppose the ideal practice would be for me to move it outside at sunset and back inside at daybreak but that would be a lot of work and would also interfere with the occasional nights where I need to charge it.

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It should be obvious which is cooler and it could be your best option but that would be rare.

In my case, the concrete pad alone absorbs enough heat to make my garage 5 to 10º warmer during "normal" Summer days. The only exception is when we had our heatwave a week ago. The garage was slightly cooler (if the mid 90's can be considered cool...) So I generally leave the garage door open an hour or so after I get home to vent the heat. This has been the case at several locations

oxothuk said:

SageBrush said:

oxothuk said:

I keep the Leaf in my garage

Click to expand...

I doubt your are doing the LEAF a favor in the summer, since it does not benefit as much from the night time outside cooling.

Click to expand...

But it's also not suffering from the daytime heating it would experience outside - wouldn't that be worse?. The garage has no a/c but it IS insulated and has high ceilings, and as I said the temperature range in the garage is narrower than the range outdoors.

I suppose the ideal practice would be for me to move it outside at sunset and back inside at daybreak but that would be a lot of work and would also interfere with the occasional nights where I need to charge it.

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You get to pick your poison. A narrower temperature range may be advantageous but the best data suggests that the average tells the tale**. You can also mitigate the effect by e.g. leaving the car outside overnight after a DCFC, and/or improving the garage night time ventilation.

My LEAF lived in Colorado from 2017 to 2019 in the 4 corners (SW) part of the state. Here is its graph of the vehicle temps. For about a month every year the battery temp went over 75F. The later part of the graph is in Albuquerque, also at 6000+ altitude. Peak temps are about the same but they last for the better part of 3 months. The lifetime average temp of the pack is 56.2F. At least for our use case, outside parking in the shade is working out OK. The car is coming up on its 8th birthday and has 11 capacity bars.

If you are technically minded, the underlying destructive chemical reaction(s) are presumed to track Arrhenius' theory of kinetics. The constant has been calculated to be ~ 10F degrees although people love to argue for different values. I'm inclined to think that an RMS temperature would be more predictive than annual average but it probably has little practical advantage over a simple average.

** Hawaii is a good example. That climate has a narrow range that I think is mostly 70 -- 80F. LEAFs wilt in that climate.

SageBrush said:

I've been harping for years for people to not cook their LEAFs in garages in the summer but habits are hard to break. I suspect garaging is one of the more important unrecognized causes behind the battery degradation variation we here about in the same climate.

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My garage is generally cooler than outside. Yours might be different.

SageBrush said:

You get to pick your poison. A narrower temperature range may be advantageous but the best data suggests that the average tells the tale**. You can also mitigate the effect by e.g. leaving the car outside overnight after a DCFC, and/or improving the garage night time ventilation.

My LEAF lived in Colorado from 2017 to 2019 in the 4 corners (SW) part of the state. Here is its graph of the vehicle temps. For about a month every year the battery temp went over 75F. The later part of the graph is in Albuquerque, also at 6000+ altitude. Peak temps are about the same but they last for the better part of 3 months. The lifetime average temp of the pack is 56.2F. At least for our use case, outside parking in the shade is working out OK. The car is coming up on its 8th birthday and has 11 capacity bars.

** Hawaii is a good example. That climate has a narrow range that I think is mostly 70 -- 80F. LEAFs wilt in that climate.

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How did you build your temperature history? Is that based on spot checks you have recorded, or does LeafSpy have some way of pulling a history that the car records itself?

Another reason I use the garage is to reduce UV wear on the paint/upholstery. My wife is the primary driver and she cares a lot appearance, so I have to as well. If I had a nice shady spot to park (or a carport) I would probably do that in the summer. In the winter I'm expecting I'll need to conserve battery temp rather than shed it, so the garage will be an advantage then.

I'm a bit surprised that Hawaii would be hard on Leafs. Is that still true for the newer battery packs? By definition, no one in Hawaii takes long trips at high speeds.

oxothuk said:

spot checks you have recorded,

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Yes.
I try to be consistent and check around 11am but there is some variation.

UV is not a problem in the shade. My wife is pretty good about putting up a sunshade when needed, but she refuses to point the car towards the sun if it interferes with her convenience, and she struggles with the sun position and tracking. Since I prefer that she simply seek shade, I don't make a huge fuss over the car direction.

In the winter I'm expecting I'll need to conserve battery temp rather than shed it, so the garage will be an advantage then.

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I'd think so for the battery, but then you miss out on a warm cabin from sun shining in.

WetEV said:

SageBrush said:

I've been harping for years for people to not cook their LEAFs in garages in the summer but habits are hard to break. I suspect garaging is one of the more important unrecognized causes behind the battery degradation variation we here about in the same climate.

Click to expand...

My garage is generally cooler than outside. Yours might be different.

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Yeah, I can imagine it being different in the PNW than the mountain West. @oxothuk and I live in high desert climates that usually have night time breezes and summer temperatures in the high 60s in the early AM. For us I think a closed, unconditioned garage is likely to be inferior, and by a fair amount.

SageBrush said:

Yeah, I can imagine it being different in the PNW than the mountain West. @oxothuk and I live in high desert climates that usually have night time breezes and summer temperatures in the high 60s in the early AM. For us I think a closed, unconditioned garage is likely to be inferior, and by a fair amount.

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Probably as much a matter of design and construction. If not more. I've seen garages near me that are much warmer in summertime than mine.

SageBrush said:

WetEV said:

SageBrush said:

I've been harping for years for people to not cook their LEAFs in garages in the summer but habits are hard to break. I suspect garaging is one of the more important unrecognized causes behind the battery degradation variation we here about in the same climate.

Click to expand...

My garage is generally cooler than outside. Yours might be different.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I can imagine it being different in the PNW than the mountain West. @oxothuk and I live in high desert climates that usually have night time breezes and summer temperatures in the high 60s in the early AM. For us I think a closed, unconditioned garage is likely to be inferior, and by a fair amount.

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In a "typical" summer day, the garage is not cooler but hardly hot. Even when closed all day while at work, I may see it get to the low 80's on warmer days but its generally in the mid to upper 70's and dropping to the low 70's overnight but our typical overnight low is in the upper 50's. A good example is today; overnight low 57º, garage temp; 73.2º. Yesterday's high 86º, garage temp 82º which is above normal but opening the garage door for a bit drops the temp in the mid to upper 70's almost immediately. In my current location, I have direct sunlight on it only to the mid afternoon but a LOT of asphalt which obviously adds to the heat retention.

Now this is a huge contrast to my previous location where shade was involved. Temps ran from high 60's to mid 70's nearly all summer with only extended heat waves pushing it higher. Only had direct sunlight a few hours in the afternoon.

Leaf just launched in Nepal.

https://youtu.be/-3ShYF2oICw

And still dominates Ukraine, with nearly 3x Tesla sales.

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-economy/3277876-ukrainian-electric-vehicle-market-deceased-by-almost-25-in-june.html

Nissan Leaf rated one of the top ten ACs in a car.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/10-cars-suvs-best-air-conditioning-1611132%3famp=1

https://youtu.be/CNkywB6oQfs

I'm finding news about what is happening in UK Nissan wise and it sounds exciting but I'm still not hearing anything about the USA short-term/ long-term plans on what they're building etc.

DougWantsALeaf said:

Leaf just launched in Nepal.

https://youtu.be/-3ShYF2oICw

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If the numbers I found are to be believed, Nepal is a tiny auto market with auto sales before COVID of about 20K units per year. In comparison, Nissan (not including Infiniti) sold about 280K vehicles in the US in Q2 2021.

From https://www.cncda.org/wp-content/uploads/Cal-Covering-4Q-20.pdf, California does about 2 million new vehicle registrations per year, normally. CA's population is about 40 million. Nepal's population is about 29 million...