User avatar
dgpcolorado
Posts: 3194
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:56 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Dec 2011
Location: The Western Slope, Colorado

Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:50 pm

GRA wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:39 pm
Yes, I know some states don't allow it, and they need to change that. As the % of PEVs increase in a given state, so will the political pressure to fix this. It's bad enough that we still have gas prices to 1/10th cent, when the justification for it ended long ago.

BTW, have you let your local legislator and senator know how you feel about this in Colorado? Squeaky wheels etc.
Colorado isn't one of the states that prohibits charge stations billing by the kWh. So far as mandating sale by the kWh, that seems unnecessary. If drivers don't like the cost structure of some of those DCFC stations don't use them -- vote with your dollars.

[Of course that's easy for me to say: I pay nothing for Supercharging my car, having paid up-front for FUSC (Free Unlimited Supercharging) when I bought my CPO Tesla. Since then I've Supercharged it more than 458 times, every one of them on a road trip, since I have no local Supercharger Stations. At thirty miles away, the Montrose CO Supercharger Station will be the first "local" one in my six county area.]

Most EV charging is at home and public level 2 charging where I live is free. Public L2 stations here in Colorado are 80% paid for by a state grant fund. The money for the fund comes from a $50 per year extra registration fee on plug-in cars: $30 of which goes to roads and $20 goes to fund grants for charge stations. Colorado has long been one of the most EV supportive states. Perhaps that is because of air pollution problems in the Denver metro area, although that is speculation on my part (I haven't lived there in decades and don't get much state news here in my remote rural mountain county, population about 5000).
Blue 2012 SV Dec 2011 to Feb 2016
CPO 2014 Tesla S60 Mar 2016
One car, no ICE, at last!

GRA
Posts: 12881
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:47 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:50 pm
GRA wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:39 pm
Yes, I know some states don't allow it, and they need to change that. As the % of PEVs increase in a given state, so will the political pressure to fix this. It's bad enough that we still have gas prices to 1/10th cent, when the justification for it ended long ago.

BTW, have you let your local legislator and senator know how you feel about this in Colorado? Squeaky wheels etc.
Colorado isn't one of the states that prohibits charge stations billing by the kWh. So far as mandating sale by the kWh, that seems unnecessary. If drivers don't like the cost structure of some of those DCFC stations don't use them -- vote with your dollars.

If I thought we could afford the time to let the free market play out, I'd agree with you. However, since virtually all current DC QCs only exist because of government subsidies, and there's no for-profit business model for them at this time, expansion in the number of stations will remain slow for the foreseeable future. As governments are already involved up to their necks in deploying QCs, they have the power (in states that allow per kWh pricing) to demand that any station they subsidize, which is virtually all of them, bill by the kWh.

Eventually (we hope) profitability will be possible unsubsidized (at a price per mile <= gas), at which point site buildout will massively accelerate and consequently real price competition will exist, with rates being advertised on sites just as gas stations do now. If we've already established per kWh pricing as the standard, new sites will have little choice but to follow suit.

Of course, if they don't and it seems necessary, there's always the option of passing a law requiring this for all sites.
-----------------------------------
dgpcolorado wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:50 pm
[Of course that's easy for me to say: I pay nothing for Supercharging my car, having paid up-front for FUSC (Free Unlimited Supercharging) when I bought my CPO Tesla. Since then I've Supercharged it more than 458 times, every one of them on a road trip, since I have no local Supercharger Stations. At thirty miles away, the Montrose CO Supercharger Station will be the first "local" one in my six county area.]

Most EV charging is at home and public level 2 charging where I live is free. Public L2 stations here in Colorado are 80% paid for by a state grant fund. The money for the fund comes from a $50 per year extra registration fee on plug-in cars: $30 of which goes to roads and $20 goes to fund grants for charge stations. Colorado has long been one of the most EV supportive states. Perhaps that is because of air pollution problems in the Denver metro area, although that is speculation on my part (I haven't lived there in decades and don't get much state news here in my remote rural mountain county, population about 5000).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
dgpcolorado
Posts: 3194
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:56 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Dec 2011
Location: The Western Slope, Colorado

Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:37 am

GRA wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:47 pm
If I thought we could afford the time to let the free market play out, I'd agree with you. However, since virtually all current DC QCs only exist because of government subsidies, and there's no for-profit business model for them at this time, expansion in the number of stations will remain slow for the foreseeable future. As governments are already involved up to their necks in deploying QCs, they have the power (in states that allow per kWh pricing) to demand that any station they subsidize, which is virtually all of them, bill by the kWh...
Governments in Europe have been subsidizing DCFC stations. The US Federal government hasn't done much. A very few states have subsidized DCFC infrastructure. I think it is a stretch to call the VW settlement that funds EA a "government subsidy," even if that is sort of the result.

However, the biggest DCFC network was built and paid for by Tesla for its cars, since they wanted to demonstrate that EV use for road trips was both possible and practical and weren't willing to wait for such stations to be built by governments or commercial interests.

As you suggest, there isn't a viable for-profit business model for DCFC at present. Much of the problem is that most charging will be done at home or workplaces, so the gas station model doesn't transfer easily to EVs and DCFC. If you had a gas station in your garage, how often would you visit an actual gas station and its convenience store?

You may be right that the only way forward is both government subsidies and mandates. Not just for interstate DCFC but also for L2 charging infrastructure for those who don't have home charging. For example: street parking charging pedestals and requirements for charging in apartment and condo parking lots. (This sort of thing works against the goals of those who think that privately owned cars should be eliminated in favor of shared use self-driving cars, but that's another issue.)

Nevertheless, can you really see such government subsidies getting through the US Senate? How? Even the majority of states are ideologically opposed to such things, your state and mine being notable exceptions.
Blue 2012 SV Dec 2011 to Feb 2016
CPO 2014 Tesla S60 Mar 2016
One car, no ICE, at last!

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6251
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:52 am

This ideological argument over payment by minute or kWh is silly.
The privately funded Ionity network in Europe in up to 0.79 Euros a kWh. No doubt GRA is a happy camper knowing he got what he sore dearly wants.

Personally, I favor by minute charging because it incentivizes people to use the chargers efficiently. As for the hapless 50 - 70 kW EVs, those are rare trip cars from the get go.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

User avatar
dgpcolorado
Posts: 3194
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:56 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Dec 2011
Location: The Western Slope, Colorado

Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:06 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:52 am
This ideological argument over payment by minute or kWh is silly.
The privately funded Ionity network in Europe in up to 0.79 Euros a kWh. No doubt GRA is a happy camper knowing he got what he sore dearly wants.

Personally, I favor by minute charging because it incentivizes people to use the chargers efficiently. As for the hapless 50 - 70 kW EVs, those are rare trip cars from the get go.
The problem is that a lot of those non Tesla Charge stations, such as ChargePoint, are limited in kW capacity, regardless of the ability of the car to accept charge. If the per minute charge was reasonable for the capacity of the charger, ok. But a combination of per minute plus a kWh fee makes it really hard to determine the cost of charging at a particular DCFC station. (I realize that the arithmetic is really easy for you but you are very atypical IME.)

Throw in a lot of ChargePoint stations that are currently marked as "Power Reduced" — what does that mean? — and how does one figure out how much a station will cost? No, best to keep it simple and charge by energy units.
Blue 2012 SV Dec 2011 to Feb 2016
CPO 2014 Tesla S60 Mar 2016
One car, no ICE, at last!

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6251
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:34 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:06 pm
But a combination of per minute plus a kWh fee makes it really hard to determine the cost of charging at a particular DCFC station. (I realize that the arithmetic is really easy for you but you are very atypical IME.)
There should be a logical fallacy called 'appeal to vanity.'
Throw in a lot of ChargePoint stations that are currently marked as "Power Reduced" — what does that mean? — and how does one figure out how much a station will cost? No, best to keep it simple and charge by energy units.
For the arithmetically challenged: There is an App for that
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 12881
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:44 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:37 am
GRA wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:47 pm
If I thought we could afford the time to let the free market play out, I'd agree with you. However, since virtually all current DC QCs only exist because of government subsidies, and there's no for-profit business model for them at this time, expansion in the number of stations will remain slow for the foreseeable future. As governments are already involved up to their necks in deploying QCs, they have the power (in states that allow per kWh pricing) to demand that any station they subsidize, which is virtually all of them, bill by the kWh...
Governments in Europe have been subsidizing DCFC stations. The US Federal government hasn't done much. A very few states have subsidized DCFC infrastructure. I think it is a stretch to call the VW settlement that funds EA a "government subsidy," even if that is sort of the result.

We disagree on that. The $2b that EA has to spend would otherwise be paid into the general fund as fines. EA is directed by the government on how to spend that money, so they're just cutting out one step. Seeing as how we're in the Colorado EV Fast Charging Corridors topic, IIRR those stations are being paid for largely by Colorado's share of the VW settlement.
[Edit]: Yeah, here you go:
Volkswagen Diesel Emissions Settlement

The State of Colorado will receive over $68.7 million from a settlement with the car manufacturer Volkswagen Group of America. The funds will be used to reduce air pollution in Colorado. Colorado will fund certain eligible projects to reduce nitrogen oxide emissions from the transportation sector. In addition to cutting NOx emissions, the projects that receive funding are likely to reduce ozone concentrations and emissions of carbon dioxide and other pollutants.

The Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment is the state’s lead agency to oversee how this money is distributed and spent. We coordinated with the Colorado Department of Transportation, Colorado Energy Office, Regional Air Quality Council, and other agencies to help develop Colorado's Beneficiary Mitigation Plan.

Colorado allocated $10.33m of that to build the Fast Charging Corridors.


dgpcolorado wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:37 am
However, the biggest DCFC network was built and paid for by Tesla for its cars, since they wanted to demonstrate that EV use for road trips was both possible and practical and weren't willing to wait for such stations to be built by governments or commercial interests.

As you suggest, there isn't a viable for-profit business model for DCFC at present. Much of the problem is that most charging will be done at home or workplaces, so the gas station model doesn't transfer easily to EVs and DCFC. If you had a gas station in your garage, how often would you visit an actual gas station and its convenience store?

As long as ownership of EVs is restricted to people who own detached single family homes, I'd agree with you. But the places where pollution is the worst and ZEVs most needed are in higher density cities, which is why a lot of subsidized QCs are now being built at supermarkets etc., so that apartment/condo dwellers can realistically use a BEV. The two nearest QCs to me are at a bank (EA) and a supermarket (EVgo).

dgpcolorado wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:37 am
You may be right that the only way forward is both government subsidies and mandates. Not just for interstate DCFC but also for L2 charging infrastructure for those who don't have home charging. For example: street parking charging pedestals and requirements for charging in apartment and condo parking lots. (This sort of thing works against the goals of those who think that privately owned cars should be eliminated in favor of shared use self-driving cars, but that's another issue.)

While California now requires all new MUDs to be equipped for (but IIRR not with) charging, the existing housing stock has an average lifetime of 100 years, and retrofitting, even where it's possible, is very expensive and slow. The lack of charging at MUDs will constrain where PEV owners can live for decades. Public QCs at sites they regularly visit long enough to provide a useful charge, along with workplace L2, will allow a much quicker transition. As to curbside chargers, that's the most expensive and long-term option of all, as it requires tearing up and replacing sidewalks, and cities aren't going to be keen on doing that, even under the unlikely assumption they could afford to, ahead of the sidewalk's lifetime.

dgpcolorado wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:37 am
Nevertheless, can you really see such government subsidies getting through the US Senate? How? Even the majority of states are ideologically opposed to such things, your state and mine being notable exceptions.

Re the Senate, depends what happens in Georgia, as well as what happens in 2022 and 2024. But states with half the U.S. population getting going is better than none.
Last edited by GRA on Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 12881
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:13 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:52 am
This ideological argument over payment by minute or kWh is silly.
The privately funded Ionity network in Europe in up to 0.79 Euros a kWh. No doubt GRA is a happy camper knowing he got what he sore dearly wants.


What are gas prices in the same country(s)?

SageBrush wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:52 am
Personally, I favor by minute charging because it incentivizes people to use the chargers efficiently. As for the hapless 50 - 70 kW EVs, those are rare trip cars from the get go.

You forgot to write "Let them eat cake".
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 12881
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:19 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:34 pm
dgpcolorado wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:06 pm
But a combination of per minute plus a kWh fee makes it really hard to determine the cost of charging at a particular DCFC station. (I realize that the arithmetic is really easy for you but you are very atypical IME.)
There should be a logical fallacy called 'appeal to vanity.'
Throw in a lot of ChargePoint stations that are currently marked as "Power Reduced" — what does that mean? — and how does one figure out how much a station will cost? No, best to keep it simple and charge by energy units.
For the arithmetically challenged: There is an App for that

Yeah, right. Or we could just use a simple, universal, easy to compare method that anyone can use without having to do a bit of math. It's bad enough that gas prices still end in 9/10ths, decades after there was any practical justification for it, only leaving a psychological one.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
dgpcolorado
Posts: 3194
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:56 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Dec 2011
Location: The Western Slope, Colorado

Re: Colorado Electric Vehicle Fast-Charging Corridors

Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:31 pm

GRA wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:19 pm
Yeah, right. Or we could just use a simple, universal, easy to compare method that anyone can use without having to do a bit of math. It's bad enough that gas prices still end in 9/10ths, decades after there was any practical justification for it, only leaving a psychological one.
Just so.
Blue 2012 SV Dec 2011 to Feb 2016
CPO 2014 Tesla S60 Mar 2016
One car, no ICE, at last!

Return to “EVSE / Charging Equipment and Networks”