Level 3 at home

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sdwarwick

New member
Joined
Aug 8, 2019
Messages
2
Hi Folks - I'm working with a startup company that is looking at developing a true "level 3" DC charger for residential deployment. This would enable you to fully charge the car in 30 minutes from 90% discharge at home. The system would run off of standard home wiring, and would essentially "build up" a charge for fast-dump into the car, and then go through a slow build-up again.

The intent would be to bring fast charging to places where only L2 is typically available, and would potentially eliminate one of the key constraints around owning an EV.

Although the technology issues have been solved, there is still some controversy as to actual interest from the EV community. I was wondering if people in this group would have an opinion as to if this would be of "high value"

As a complete charging unit the price would be something like 25% of the cost of the EV itself.

I look forward to your thoughts.
 
This is awesome.

One of the barriers with mass adoption of EV's is apartment dwellers. Do renters really want to drive to the nearest Level 3 charger and wait 40 minutes for a charge every other day? Perhaps if apartment complexes installed this Level 3 at home technology, more people would be inclined to purchase an EV.
 
Awesome idea, but I also am not sure you have a market.

Residential ? Nah. L2 is fine, cheap, and easier on the battery
Commercial ? Waaaay too expensive unless transport is a service. Taxis maybe ? Or courier services.
Government installations ? Maybe

I would be interested in 5 minute charging, rather than 10 - 90% SoC. I would view it as a range extender or an emergency charge.
 
Ok, sounds like a storage/charging solution. Perhaps fil the batteries with solar power or super off-peak grid power, and then charge the car fast whenever the driver wants.

I was thinking that there might be some drivers that would be interested in that, but then at the end of your posting I saw that the price point you're aiming at would be 25% of the price of the car.

That's where I think the problem is...Many EV drivers that I have experience with hesitate over spending a few hundred dollars to install a Level 2 EVSE, and try to make Level 1 charging work.

So my educated opinion is that there will be a few people that would be interested in a solution like what you're describing, despite the cost.

But will you be able to sell enough units to that smaller group to make a go of it? My guess would be - probably not....
 
^^ Another way of saying this is that it is a lot cheaper to buy a Tesla than an expensive L3 charging solution. And more generally, as EVs with larger batteries take over (in the USA anyway) the use of urban, public L2/L3 drops.
 
LeftieBiker said:
This looks like a better overall solution that trying for actual commercial DCFC speeds:

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=29954
For $4k you get a unit that will charge your car a bit faster, and provide car to home power sharing.
There are ~ 1000 CHAdeMO EV sales a month in the USA and the vast majority are to people who missed out on a Tesla due to a couple thousand dollar cost difference.

Nah
 
Pro-Tesla trolling is just as obnoxious as anti-Tesla trolling. I, for example, didn't want a Tesla, and do want a Wallbox or whatever it's called, if it performs as advertised, for no more than $4k. There are a lot of Leaf drivers who would like a bidirectional system like this at home. You are partially correct, in that the faster charging isn't the main selling point for many of us.
 
So, knowing that your LEAF battery has a limited number of charge/discharge cycles to be usable before some amount of degradation sets in, I'm not sure that I want to use them to power my house or support the grid (the payments for doing that are way too low to make it useful).

I guess I'd have to get more information on how it would all work...And more information on how it would impact battery warranties....
 
Interesting idea and as much as I have many different L2 EVSEs I'd probably not be interested in such a product :)
I'm guessing it wouldn't really useful for a business as they'd want to be able to have someone do a QC and then potentially someone else a few minutes later, it would be best suited for single-family use and at that price it probably wouldn't be saleable. Interesting idea and I can understand the cost, just can't see it being a good business venture.
 
LeftieBiker said:
This looks like a better overall solution that trying for actual commercial DCFC speeds:

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=29954


For $4k you get a unit that will charge your car a bit faster, and provide car to home power sharing.
sdwarwick:
I would consider a bidirectional unit similar to the "Wallbox DC unit" if it also includes a MPPT based solar input. Of course it also must be grid compatible with split phase 240 VAC. and meet safety codes - with a transfer switch. At 7+ kw, it would double my current charge limit and could allow a meaningful emergency panel power level to keep refrigerators running and possibly a small A/C unit (it's 99 degrees right now). Would not worry about degradation - power level is so low and with a good app, would keep the SOC in safe ranges. Since I can buy a used Leaf at a cost well below most hi tech lithium off grid battery packs on a kWh basis, why not use it as the battery storage.

If you can produce this unit (essentially a small hybrid grid tied inverter with energy storage based on CHAdeMO compatibility), I believe you will have a product to sell.
Just my opinion.
 
Randy said:
So, knowing that your LEAF battery has a limited number of charge/discharge cycles to be usable before some amount of degradation sets in, I'm not sure that I want to use them to power my house or support the grid (the payments for doing that are way too low to make it useful).

I guess I'd have to get more information on how it would all work...And more information on how it would impact battery warranties....


I agree with you. My interest, and that of many other Leaf drivers, would be in using the Leaf as a backup power source, not a daily grid-tied demand buffer. Leaf batteries are not, despite Nissan's optimism, ready for that application.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Pro-Tesla trolling is just as obnoxious as anti-Tesla trolling. I, for example, didn't want a Tesla, and do want a Wallbox or whatever it's called, if it performs as advertised, for no more than $4k. There are a lot of Leaf drivers who would like a bidirectional system like this at home. You are partially correct, in that the faster charging isn't the main selling point for many of us.
No trolling intended, and the world does not revolve around you.
 
I know that you understand the meaning of "for example" so I'll just assume that you're in a bad mood. Please count to ten, do breathing exercises, whatever it takes to be a bit more civil.
 
You, for example, are ONE person. And while your "interest" is worth about as much as it cost you to post that on the internet, I presume a few sales a month are possible. That is why I said 'the vast majority' rather than everybody.

Are you insulted by being included in the penny pinching EV market ? <<shrug>>
I bought a LEAF as part of that market too, and even a perfunctory scan of threads in this forum make it dead obvious that LEAF is engineered to be offered at the lowest cost Nissan can manage and EV quality plays second fiddle. People do not argue that the LEAF is a good EV; they argue that it can be a good EV value. And then they agonize over whether they should spend a few hundred dollars to have L2 charging at home, or they buy cheap Chinese EVSE knockoffs of uncertain quality and safety to save $100 . These people are not going to spend another $7,500 for an extra 2 kW of charging ... before installation costs.

As for V2G, the monetization is only a gleam in someone's eye. Electricity during a black-out ? There are much simpler and much less expensive alternatives, and they do not degrade the poor LEAF battery along the way. So who is left ? Well, self-contained, 100% electric off-grid homes for example.

There must be 5 of those in the country. How many of them are CHAdeMO EV owners ?
 
If you live in a mild climate, the Leaf is a very good EV - better than the Model 3 for comfort, value, and user-friendliness. The rest is just insult and baseless pooh-pooing of valid interests - except for the comments on battery degradation with regular grid storage use, with which I have already agreed. Some people just make you wish that they were on the other side, I'm afraid, and that's how we each feel, I think. You can have the last word here.
 
I'm one of the few people who has a home level 3 charger.
It's a toy level 3, only peaks at 8kw on the leaf.
New they cost around $3,400, I don't know if that included shipping from china.
I would like to buy a bigger chademo, used of course. But I never see them for sale.

I have to admit SageBrush is 100% correct. People really do agonize over spending a few hundred dollars on getting home level 2 charging going.
I don't know if they realize a few hundred dollars could spiral up to thousands of dollars if their electrical is obsolete or over loaded and they have to get a panel update and service upgrade.

To make something like this you take my little level 3 charger which was $3,400 then add some kind of battery rig to allow it to hit 50kw on the output. That's got to be a at least a $6,000 machine.
 
The link just goes to Amazon. I have a 200 amp main into my house. How much throughput could I get with something similar to your level 3? (Without a battery intermediary)
 
sdwarwick said:
As a complete charging unit the price would be something like 25% of the cost of the EV itself.
If we are talking $8K-10$K, then I don't see much change of this succeeding for residential deployment.

(Personally, I can't think of one time in 5 years that we would have needed such an ability at our house.)
 
I see the use case of a home level 3 as very limited.
If people already have 220V power available, very few would see an advantage to having the car charged in 20 minutes over having it charge in 4 hours.
Once I am home, I don't care if the car is fully charged by 7pm or 5am. I suspect many people are in the same boat.

The only market I see for this would be people that drive a lot of miles each day and come home for lunch. While I am sure there are a few of those, I doubt it is enough to support your product.
 
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