WetEV
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:18 am

Titanium48 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:34 am
Replacing fuel taxes with a weight-distance charge is probably premature, but it makes sense when the time comes to stop subsidizing EVs.
WetEV wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:04 am
A fair tax would be based on the wear and damage a vehicle does to the roads.

A fair tax would be something like axle weight cubed times number of axles times mileage times speed squared.

Yet recording mileage isn't realistic. Recording speed less so.

Yes, EVs should pay somewhat more than gas cars. Trucks and buses should pay most of the tax, as they do most of the wear and damage.
Recording mileage isn't that difficult, though there is the possibility of increased odometer fraud. Why count speed in the formula though? In addition to the difficulties and privacy implications of monitoring it, the worst damage to roads from heavy vehicles happens in front of traffic lights where they sit in one place for a while, then apply large forces to the road to get moving again.
I am not a mechanical engineer, and it shows.

Axle weight should be not not to the third power, but to the fourth power.

Speed matters, but low speed stopping/acceleration matters more.

Things like type of suspension matter as well.

Your challenge got be doing some reading. Such as this:

http://www.nvfnorden.org/lisalib/getfil ... itemid=261
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SageBrush
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:37 pm

WetEV wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:18 am
I am not a mechanical engineer, and it shows.
Axle weight should be not not to the third power, but to the fourth power.
Correct, to the 4rth power.

I also lack engineering skills but when I have read about this topic before I got the impression that winter damage is a separate matter from mass related damage. Some people argue that since weather related damage affects everybody, and everybody buys truckable goods, that we might as well pay for roads from general funds. This is not a bad argument since administration costs are minimized but it takes away the motivation to advance road technology; and more importantly to me, it sweeps the true cost of trucking under a rug. When trucks pay for road damages then e.g. rail becomes more competitive.

Externalized costs lead to bad choices. Use of fossil fool is a leading example.
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Oilpan4
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:50 pm

If I thought better services would be given if I paid more taxes i would pay more taxes.
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powersurge
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:07 am

This taxing by mileage idea is ridiculous....

I can see that a gasoline tax can pay for roads and such, but EVs are only about 1-2% of the cars on the road. I still feel that they should be exempt from taxes as an incentive for more people to get them.

If they want to tax based on mileage, then they are creating more Big Brother laws. We have the right to drive around the world at our leisure without having to report to anyone.

I could see a tax PURELY for the purpose of the road infrastructure on car registrations, based on weight... That is it..

Oilpan4
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:21 am

In new Mexico in 2016 there were 661,197 registered private and public vehicles on the roads.
DoE estimates that in 2018 there were 1,500 registered electric vehicles in nm, they don't say if that's private only or what.
We got a ways to go before we are even near 1%.
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Oilpan4
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:57 am

Now NM wants to adopt California style EV mandate.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-auto ... SKBN1WA2SJ

So they are going to get the tax in place first then try to force people to buy them.
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GaleHawkins
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:21 am

Thanks for sharing the link.

danrjones
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:48 am

Oilpan4 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:57 am
Now NM wants to adopt California style EV mandate.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-auto ... SKBN1WA2SJ

So they are going to get the tax in place first then try to force people to buy them.
Mandates can work, the biggest problem is unfunded mandates that people can't actually afford to do.
I do not feel bad for a company, say Toyota, who refused to invest in future tech and now gets behind the eight ball.
But if there is a mandate that says "consumer can't own ICE vehicles by 2030" and that mandate gives no funded viable alternatives, then yeah, that's not right.

on the other hand, a mandate like "no more incandescent bulbs" I don't have an issue with. Because there are plenty of affordable alternatives that are as good or superior. LEDs are now a viable alternative and here is no real excuse to be making inefficient old bulbs.

My evaluation would be if it drastically impacts the consumer.

However, in this case, I haven't seen CA set anything unreasonable. I have not seen CA emissions standards say something like "all ice vehicles will be illegal by 2030". Europe is making us look like chumps. Granted the use-case here is quite different. As I pointed out, the top three selling vehicles in the US are trucks, and there are no viable, affordable, EV trucks right now.
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Oilpan4
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:03 pm

Seems like no one is really trying to be first to release the first electric pickup.
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danrjones
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Re: New Mexico government had decided they hate electric vehicles

Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:19 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:03 pm
Seems like no one is really trying to be first to release the first electric pickup.
Well they are coming, but I don't think they will (yet) compete with the mainstream truck market, which again, is the top three vehicles. They will get some of it but how much?

The Rivian is looking quite nice but for its what, 80k for the smallest battery? Yes indeed some people buy 60-70k Ford F150 Platinum trucks.
But they also sell a ton more of the entry level trucks for 30-40k.

I have an old f150 and as much as i would like to replace it with an EV, I have some specific requirements that must be met.
It needs a 6.5' bed.
It needs a good amount of range while towing.
It needs to be affordable. Somewhere south of 45k out of my pocket.
It needs some of the newer safety features.


You can march into a ford dealer today and get an entry level f150 that does most of this for close to 30-40k if you haggle. The STX has good value on their entry level XL line.

So while the new EV trucks might start skimming the top of the crop, which is indeed awesome, I don't think it will get mainstream right away.

As a comparison, one can build and price a 2020 F150 XL 6.5' BED Supercrew 2WD with STX package for 41k msrp.
That's a 2020, so realistically, you could expect that later in the model year with discounts and negotiation for about 36-38k? Less?

That's what the EV truck is going to eventually need to compete with for many Americans, like myself.
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