Charging and OBC discussion split from Nissan Ariya thread

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GRA said:
As to landlords not being interested in installing L2s even if subsidized, of course not. It doesn't benefit them, so as I've noted most will have to be compelled to install them, just as they had to be compelled to provide off-street parking and all the other amenities I've listed that renters now expect to be universal. All of them had to be mandated. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_water_flat

I can't even imagine such a thing, yet within my lifetime there were cities in the richest country in the world where it was legal for landlords not to provide hot running water to their tenants.

Interesting that the White House didn't get hot water didn't get to the second floor until 1853.

https://www.whitehousehistory.org/questions/when-did-the-white-house-first-get-plumbing
 
I'm sorry, but most people often don't get what they want, they get what they can afford. In terms of second hand (or maybe even third hand) cars, that means an old Ford or Chevy that starts every morning. The people who can afford to get what they want will be buying either new or a 3-4 year old car. They will also have a garage or access to power for overnight charging. If they don't, they probably won't consider an EV to start with. Before you get to those older EV's that that the ordinary person can afford, you will need to sell a lot of new ones. The people who buy them either have access to overnight charging or will DCFC and not care about the battery. Those who DCFC will either lease or trade in every three to four years. Neither group is concerned with faster L2 charging. Overnight is all they care about. Manufacturers sell new cars and if high speed L2 was something that new car buyers wanted, they'd offer it. Tesla tried it and hardly sold any at all so they dropped that option.
 
johnlocke said:
Manufacturers sell new cars and if high speed L2 was something that new car buyers wanted, they'd offer it. Tesla tried it and hardly sold any at all so they dropped that option.
That is not a fair characterization. Tesla offered 80 Amp OBC in the days before Superchargers. Once the Supercharger network took off, and public 80 Amp L2 charging remained extremely rare, Tesla discontinued the option. Even Tesla was unable to coax many high priced destination resorts and lodges to install 80 Amp charging. It wasn't a matter of the EVSE -- Tesla provided them for free. It wasn't even entirely a money question, since Tesla often pitched in 50% of the infrastructure cost. It was typically a matter of the location not being able to support 80 Amp charging. And it was a show stopper if demand charges were involved.

This is one of the reasons why GRA is divorced from reality with his Rx for EV adoption by the poor and lower middle classes. Widely disemminated, high speed L2 charging faces severe infrastructure obstacles.
 
johnlocke said:
I'm sorry, but most people often don't get what they want, they get what they can afford. In terms of second hand (or maybe even third hand) cars, that means an old Ford or Chevy that starts every morning. The people who can afford to get what they want will be buying either new or a 3-4 year old car. They will also have a garage or access to power for overnight charging. If they don't, they probably won't consider an EV to start with.



Uh huh, and it's exactly that group that public charging is aimed at, because they will get the greatest benefit from improvements in air quality.



johnlocke said:
Before you get to those older EV's that that the ordinary person can afford, you will need to sell a lot of new ones.


As long as BEV prices remain out of reach, I agree, which is why for that, longevity and charging access issues I support PHEVs in the interim.



johnlocke said:
The people who buy them either have access to overnight charging or will DCFC and not care about the battery. Those who DCFC will either lease or trade in every three to four years. Neither group is concerned with faster L2 charging. Overnight is all they care about. Manufacturers sell new cars and if high speed L2 was something that new car buyers wanted, they'd offer it. Tesla tried it and hardly sold any at all so they dropped that option.


And now Lucid is offering 80A stock, while every other car company has increased their BEV's range, L2 and FC rates and advertises same, so clearly the manufacturers think it has value for buyers.
 
GRA said:
And now Lucid is offering 80A stock, while every other car company has increased their BEV's range, L2 and FC rates and advertises same, so clearly the manufacturers think it has value for buyers.
Like antlers on the hood.

Tesla has either reduced the OBC rating or kept it the same. So one take on this would be that the also-ran manufacturers you love to tout, unable to compete in areas that matter, add a useless feature for their advert campaigns.

Riddle time:
What does an OBC over 40 Amps get you ?
Answer: An expensive EVSE installation bill.
 
SageBrush said:
Tesla has either reduced the OBC rating or kept it the same.
Yep. For the US market, Tesla (for Model S and beyond) have shipped vehicles w/these OBC max amperages: 32, 40, 48, 72 and 80 amps. Now for the US market (and I think Canada too), they max out at 48 amps. This change happened years ago.

Maybe they will increase it again someday as battery sizes grow or as market needs/wants dictate?

FWIW, gen 3 WC (https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/wall-connector) is 48 amps max. Gen 1 and 2 were 80 amps max on 100 amp circuits. We had some gen 1's at work and now have gen 2's. Gen 3 didn't exist at the time the 2's were installed.
 
Only once have I come across a high-amp Tesla Destination Charger; I plugged my wife's car in and saw it charging at 72A (the car's OBC limit). My car only gets 48A on it. It's right next to two 40A units, which are what I normally use when I can be bothered to go over there. All of those EVSEs are a 25 minute walk away. This is at a ski area and we're there for 3-4 days, so instead I just plug into a NEMA 5-15 in the nearby parking lot and let the car charge for 3 days at 12A. (*)

Look at that, a real experience about real-life charging on a 200+ mile trip into the Maine woods. And I choose to charge at 12A because it's requires less effort.


(*) sadly, they removed that outlet this past summer
 
All current Tesla models charge at 48A L2 except for the M3SR+ which has a max of 32A L2. In order to get that 48 amp rate, you need a $500 Tesla wall charger hardwired to a 60A breaker. Figure $750 to $1500 for a simple install. Add a couple of thousand if you need to upgrade the panel. I suspect that most people opt instead for a $45 14-50 adaptor for the included charger that came with the car. It has the added advantage of being portable instead of hardwired. It is limited to 32A but most people don't care as long as the car is charged up by morning. For the same $500, you can buy an aftermarket 40 amp charger that plugs into a 14-50 outlet and is still portable. A lot of people opt for a 16 or 24A charger that will plug in to their 30A dryer outlet. They won't get a full charge overnight but It will give them enough for the next day. An OBC that charges at 80A on a dedicated 100A circuit sounds impressive and makes good ad copy but the cost to install the circuit and the wall unit is prohibitive for most. Other than Tesla, there are no high amperage L2 charging stations in the wild. Everybody is 40A or less.
 
GRA said:
johnlocke said:
I'm sorry, but most people often don't get what they want, they get what they can afford. In terms of second hand (or maybe even third hand) cars, that means an old Ford or Chevy that starts every morning. The people who can afford to get what they want will be buying either new or a 3-4 year old car. They will also have a garage or access to power for overnight charging. If they don't, they probably won't consider an EV to start with.



Uh huh, and it's exactly that group that public charging is aimed at, because they will get the greatest benefit from improvements in air quality.



johnlocke said:
Before you get to those older EV's that that the ordinary person can afford, you will need to sell a lot of new ones.


As long as BEV prices remain out of reach, I agree, which is why for that, longevity and charging access issues I support PHEVs in the interim.



johnlocke said:
The people who buy them either have access to overnight charging or will DCFC and not care about the battery. Those who DCFC will either lease or trade in every three to four years. Neither group is concerned with faster L2 charging. Overnight is all they care about. Manufacturers sell new cars and if high speed L2 was something that new car buyers wanted, they'd offer it. Tesla tried it and hardly sold any at all so they dropped that option.


And now Lucid is offering 80A stock, while every other car company has increased their BEV's range, L2 and FC rates and advertises same, so clearly the manufacturers think it has value for buyers.
First, show me an actual Lucid on the road. Second, show me an 80A public L2 station to charge it at. I could offer up a $25K Tesla by that same reasoning. I can show you a $25K Leaf though. I can show you a used Leaf for $10K as well. Also the Lucid starts at $78K but those aren't available until maybe next year and the current model is double that cost and still not shipping yet. Hardly the poster child for low cost BEV's.
 
The common issue I've seen with the beater vehicles is the maintenance cost and use cost. Sure, you get a beater for cheap, but unless you are lucky, that beater ends up being more expensive in the long run because the gas mileage is less (you can't trust the dash board mileage measurements of any ICE, just about all manufactures have been tested and shown to be way off the mark for measuring accurate gas mileage). You also have the expected failing parts that need replacement just due to wearing out regardless; wheel bearings, brake pads, belts, pumps, starters, etc. Beaters are cheap for a reason, the previous owner doesn't want to spend all the money to fix what is wrong. If you drive a beater around occasionally, it can work out, but a daily driver, it gets so expensive quickly many people just move from beater to beater, but it just ends up costing more in the long run. Right now a 2011 Leaf can be a "beater", but as most of us know, if you replaced the battery with a newer one or from a wrecked Leaf, you almost get a "new" vehicle out of it if everything else is ok on it mechanically. Yeah, it's expensive up front, but it's kind of unique to EV right now because the same logic doesn't work for a ICE beater. :?

GRA said:
johnlocke said:
A 30KWH Leaf probably won't work for them but a 60KWH Leaf+ with a 30% degraded battery might. If you are buying a 3-4 year old car, you expect more out of it than if you buy 8-10 year old car. If you buy anything older than10 years old, you're just buying a beater to get you to work or school.

As to that, the Impala was 12 years old when I got it, and I drove it everywhere, daily as well as on trips to the mountains fully loaded with scouts and their packs. Of course, it was sold to me by my dad, who kept full logbooks showing every dollar spent and maintenance ever done to the car, a practice I've continued with all my cars. The 2000 was nine years old when I bought it, and I lacked all that info prior to then, but had records of everything subsequent to that.
 
The best Beaters / Winter Rats are those with not so high mileage, but with somewhat ugly bodies. Dents, non-critical rust, oxidized paint, ripped interiors - those are the things to look for, because even cars like Volvo 240s that last for hundreds of thousands of miles, they don't usually last cheaply. Sometimes a Japanese car like a Toyota Corolla will, but you can't count on it.
 
johnlocke said:
Second, show me an 80A public L2 station to charge it at.

http://www.pluginncw.com/high-amperage-level-2-charging-network

For example: https://www.plugshare.com/location/98638

161791.jpg
 
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
And now Lucid is offering 80A stock, while every other car company has increased their BEV's range, L2 and FC rates and advertises same, so clearly the manufacturers think it has value for buyers.
Like antlers on the hood.

Tesla has either reduced the OBC rating or kept it the same. So one take on this would be that the also-ran manufacturers you love to tout, unable to compete in areas that matter, add a useless feature for their advert campaigns.

Riddle time:
What does an OBC over 40 Amps get you ?
Answer: An expensive EVSE installation bill.


Oh, please, are you seriously suggesting that a 48A EVSE install is that much more expensive than 40A? Unless you have to upgade your SE, but that can be just as necessary with a 40A (50A circuit) as a 48A (60A circuit), depending on what you're starting with.

As for Tesla, after they eliminated the 80A option and returned to 40A for the S/X, they went to 48A for the 3/Y (other than the SR+) and subsequently brought the S/X up to that. Now that Lucid has surpassed them on range, I suspect tesla will be increasing both range and max, charge rate as soon as they can; Indeed, they apparently planned to in crease the S/X 'srange to compete, but bailed at the last minute.
 
johnlocke said:
All current Tesla models charge at 48A L2 except for the M3SR+ which has a max of 32A L2. In order to get that 48 amp rate, you need a $500 Tesla wall charger hardwired to a 60A breaker. Figure $750 to $1500 for a simple install. Add a couple of thousand if you need to upgrade the panel. I suspect that most people opt instead for a $45 14-50 adaptor for the included charger that came with the car. It has the added advantage of being portable instead of hardwired. It is limited to 32A but most people don't care as long as the car is charged up by morning. For the same $500, you can buy an aftermarket 40 amp charger that plugs into a 14-50 outlet and is still portable. A lot of people opt for a 16 or 24A charger that will plug in to their 30A dryer outlet. They won't get a full charge overnight but It will give them enough for the next day. An OBC that charges at 80A on a dedicated 100A circuit sounds impressive and makes good ad copy but the cost to install the circuit and the wall unit is prohibitive for most. Other than Tesla, there are no high amperage L2 charging stations in the wild. Everybody is 40A or less.


I am not suggesting that we need 80A public L2, although if it's available, sure. 80A shared will cost the same or less than two separate 40A.
48A waits on manufacturers, - as more cars can use it, more EVSE manufacturers will offer them. Offhand, the Mach-E, Bolt & EUV can all use 48A now. I imagine Porsches and probably the high-end Audis will too, and we'll see what Hyundai and Kia do. The exact same process is taking place with 350kW FCs - as more 800+ volt cars appear, the number of companies installing 350KW FCs will grow in consequence.


As to portability, i agree with you on the advantages of an EVSe using a 14-50 for <=40A, at least until DCFCs proliferate.
 
johnlocke said:
GRA said:
johnlocke said:
I'm sorry, but most people often don't get what they want, they get what they can afford. In terms of second hand (or maybe even third hand) cars, that means an old Ford or Chevy that starts every morning. The people who can afford to get what they want will be buying either new or a 3-4 year old car. They will also have a garage or access to power for overnight charging. If they don't, they probably won't consider an EV to start with.



Uh huh, and it's exactly that group that public charging is aimed at, because they will get the greatest benefit from improvements in air quality.



johnlocke said:
Before you get to those older EV's that that the ordinary person can afford, you will need to sell a lot of new ones.


As long as BEV prices remain out of reach, I agree, which is why for that, longevity and charging access issues I support PHEVs in the interim.



johnlocke said:
The people who buy them either have access to overnight charging or will DCFC and not care about the battery. Those who DCFC will either lease or trade in every three to four years. Neither group is concerned with faster L2 charging. Overnight is all they care about. Manufacturers sell new cars and if high speed L2 was something that new car buyers wanted, they'd offer it. Tesla tried it and hardly sold any at all so they dropped that option.


And now Lucid is offering 80A stock, while every other car company has increased their BEV's range, L2 and FC rates and advertises same, so clearly the manufacturers think it has value for buyers.
First, show me an actual Lucid on the road. Second, show me an 80A public L2 station to charge it at. I could offer up a $25K Tesla by that same reasoning. I can show you a $25K Leaf though. I can show you a used Leaf for $10K as well. Also the Lucid starts at $78K but those aren't available until maybe next year and the current model is double that cost and still not shipping yet. Hardly the poster child for low cost BEV's.


As you probably know, Lucid deliveries aren't due to start until next month (and may well be set back further, just as happened repeatedly with a certain other high-end BEV company's products). Again, 80A isn't necessary for public charging now but we may well see them proliferate if cars that can use it do. Or people will opt for FCs instead, i available. Lucids are limited-edition egomobiles, just as Plaid+ are. So what? 250+ mile range BEVs also used to be, and now increasingly they aren't. We still don't have a semi-affordable (less than $40k base MSRP) 300 mile range BEV, but will in the next few years, and maybe we'll eventually see 300 miles/$30k, or even 400 miles/$25k. Until BEV ranges approximate ICE ranges in the real world, pack sizes and charging speeds will continue to grow, while prices continue to drop.
 
GRA said:
Oh, please, are you seriously suggesting that a 48A EVSE install is that much more expensive than 40A?

Not really a suggestion, but a fact of life if an electrician is called for the job.
 
GRA said:
Oh, please, are you seriously suggesting that a 48A EVSE install is that much more expensive than 40A?

Not really a suggestion, but a fact of life if an electrician is called for the job.
 
SageBrush said:
johnlocke said:
Manufacturers sell new cars and if high speed L2 was something that new car buyers wanted, they'd offer it. Tesla tried it and hardly sold any at all so they dropped that option.
That is not a fair characterization. Tesla offered 80 Amp OBC in the days before Superchargers. Once the Supercharger network took off, and public 80 Amp L2 charging remained extremely rare, Tesla discontinued the option. Even Tesla was unable to coax many high priced destination resorts and lodges to install 80 Amp charging. It wasn't a matter of the EVSE -- Tesla provided them for free. It wasn't even entirely a money question, since Tesla often pitched in 50% of the infrastructure cost. It was typically a matter of the location not being able to support 80 Amp charging. And it was a show stopper if demand charges were involved.

This is one of the reasons why GRA is divorced from reality with his Rx for EV adoption by the poor and lower middle classes. Widely disemminated, high speed L2 charging faces severe infrastructure obstacles.

Or simply a marketing ploy to ease range anxiety that Tesla already knew was overblown. Having 80 amp charging at home was nothing more than a monumental waste of money and EVERYONE lost a ton when they sold those cars because the double chargers were literally worthless.

Over time we have forgotten the early obstacles presented to us over charging speeds. It wasn't until we had the car for a month or a year or 2, that we realized the car spends most of its time at home and needs nowhere near that much time to charge even on standard L2 speeds.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Over time we have forgotten the early obstacles presented to us over charging speeds. It wasn't until we had the car for a month or a year or 2, that we realized the car spends most of its time at home and needs nowhere near that much time to charge even on standard L2 speeds.

I concur. I charge my 2018 about every 3rd night, and even then only for a couple hours. I've never had an issue worrying about "how fast" I'm charging at home. I just have it set to be ready when I leave that morning, though with an offset so that it doesn't charge much above 75%.

In fact, a far bigger gripe to me with the Leaf than the charging speed is the lack of charging set stop. I know, I know, that's been dsussed many times. But come on, let me set it to 75%!

But the 6.6 kW? Never been an issue.

By the way, does the sweeping profile to the back of the Ariya (minus the spoiler and hump) look a lot like the model Y from the newest photos of it charging?
https://insideevs.com/photo/6136201/gmc-hummer-ev-source-ev-eh/
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Or simply a marketing ploy to ease range anxiety that Tesla already knew was overblown. Having 80 amp charging at home was nothing more than a monumental waste of money and EVERYONE lost a ton when they sold those cars because the double chargers were literally worthless.
THIS ^^

I knew a guy that bought a P85D back when I got my LEAF. He got the double charger and put in 80A charging at his house. But his car would charge at work during the day at 30A, and he rarely needed to charge at home. Two years later he told me the double charger and 100A circuit was the biggest waste of money because he never used them. But he was ego driven (hence spending $130K on the P). I wouldn't be surprised if he has a Taycan now.
 
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