Nissan shifts EV strategy to premium vehicles, not ‘discount cars’ like Leaf

OrientExpress said:

Jeff, the Versa and the LEAF are the same car. Both are built on the same assembly line and both are based on the Nissan B platform.

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Well, if they are almost the same car, why the hell would Nissan tack on another 20 grand (or more) for a battery pack that should be costing them 4k?
Is it because they can't get the parts as cheap as other manufacturers?

Sorry, but that's not the customers fault.

You do have one thing right, the customer can decide not to pay what Nissan wants, and buy from another brand.
That certainly won't help Nissan profitability. LOL

danrjones said:

OrientExpress said:

Jeff, the Versa and the LEAF are the same car. Both are built on the same assembly line and both are based on the Nissan B platform.

Click to expand...

Well, if they are almost the same car, why the hell would Nissan tack on another 20 grand (or more) for a battery pack that should be costing them 4k?
Is it because they can't get the parts as cheap as other manufacturers?

Sorry, but that's not the customers fault.

You do have one thing right, the customer can decide not to pay what Nissan wants, and buy from another brand.
That certainly won't help Nissan profitability. LOL

Click to expand...

They aren't the same car. OrientExpress has a long history of posting both slavishly pro-Nissan propaganda and just plain inaccurate information. He is a good example of how experience doesn't always produce knowledge...

I guess I have to dumb it down for the Leftie.

Yes they are different cars which are called "Top Hats", one is called a LEAF and one is called a Versa, but they are built on the same platform which is called the B platform which many other cars are also built on. They share many components, mostly under the top hat, but the top hats are what make them different cars.

Here are all of the different top hats that are based on the B platform: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_B_platform

OrientExpress said:

I guess I have to dumb it down for the Leftie.

Yes they are different cars which are called "Top Hats", one is called a LEAF and one is called a Versa, but they are built on the same platform which is called the B platform which many other cars are also built on. They share many components, mostly under the top hat, but the top hats are what make them different cars.

Here are all of the different top hats that are based on the B platform: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_B_platform

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You don't seem to understand that the Leaf platform is listed AFTER the B platform there, as a separate platform. You ignore everything except an initial rumor, from before the Leaf came out, that it might be based on the Versa platform. I understand that you can't admit to being wrong, so I'll just have to keep correcting your mistakes.

Don't make me bring up "sidewalks"...

Even dumbing it down doesn't work.

Let's try this, the platform family is called the B platform. Of that there are several variants, which have variant names, but they are all B platform vehicles.

Just read the link, folks. And remember: OE's posts should be read as entertainment(?), not information.

OrientExpress said:

Even dumbing it down doesn't work.

Let's try this, the platform family is called the B platform. Of that there are several variants, which have variant names, but they are all B platform vehicles.

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Either way I'd love to see table of component pricing to find out why its not profitable.

My SV+ (with technology package) was 35K out the door, so after incentive it’ll be 27.5K.

I went into the process asking for a S+, but never saw one - we had every dealer within 200 miles looking for one. The few Pluses on lots in the area were SVs and SLs. In the end, we had a dealer match a quote we had received from a different dealer on an S+ he located at a DIFFERENT dealer...to make the math work he actually gave me 3500 for my 11-year-old Versa (!)

I was intrigued by the Hyundai Kona but that thing is nowhere near me yet. It was pretty much Leaf or bust for me because of the full tax incentive. I think a Model 3 would end up being 10-12K more in the end, before even factoring in insurance. The Bolt was also going to be more expensive than the Leaf, too, and the Leaf has some trunk space.

I do love the Plus. It’s quick and unobtrusive.

OrientExpress said:

Even dumbing it down doesn't work.

Let's try this, the platform family is called the B platform. Of that there are several variants, which have variant names, but they are all B platform vehicles.

Click to expand...

Wiki does seem a bit confusing on the whole matter but the Leaf is listed under the B platform tab, just a sub tab called Nissan EV platform.
Some footnotes about the Leaf, again under the B platform tab:
"GoAuto. 2009-07-28. NISSAN Motor Co has previewed its dedicated electric vehicle (EV) platform on a Tiida-based prototype this week ahead of the all-new production vehicle’s unveiling at the opening of the Japanese manufacturer’s new global headquarters in Yokohama on August 2."
also:
"Nissan Online Newsroom. 2010-10-27. The front-wheel drive Nissan LEAF utilizes an all-new dedicated EV platform with batteries housed in the floor for optimum vehicle packaging and weight distribution."
So OE are you saying that while the Leaf may be a dedicated EV platform it still lies under the umbrella of the B platform?

Yes, it is part of the B platform family. One of the most unique parts is the different floor pan stamping to accommodate the traction battery. There are other unique stampings as well.

OrientExpress said:

Yes, it is part of the B platform family. One of the most unique parts is the different floor pan stamping to accommodate the traction battery. There are other unique stampings as well.

Click to expand...

I'm still not seeing any good excuses for why Nissan can't profitably make the Leaf.

Scouring the WWW the current battery prices are between 138 and 156 per kWh, depending on whom you believe, and as already provided, at least three big automakers expect it to be $100 shortly, and around $65 by around 2026.

If the "cousin" of the Leaf starts at UNDER 15 grand, I see no excuse for Nissan to not make a profit.
CURRENTLY worst case at $156/ KWh, a 40 pack would cost $6240. The MSRP I think ranges from 29k to about 40k for the SL That sure seems to me to leave room to make profit when he Versa - with a small ICE engine and a transmission - cost 15 grand.

I would in fact say the opposite - Nissan needs to price the Leaf lower, they need to actually treat the customers well (look at the battery replacement issues and costs), and should have done a batter job at the range gate and thermal management.

Transport Evolved on YouTube, she said almost the exact same things we have been saying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcHSrH5zJMY

Thanks for posting this video. I think it is spot on.

My first Nissan was a 1973 B-110 and the 2016 Leaf SL is my 6th Nissan but the first one without a gas tank.

Before I would pay $40K for a new Leaf I would look at a new Tesla Model 3 basic version at the same price. I want and need the quality driver assists provided and proven by Tesla and that is on the market TODAY.

In my case our basic EV needs are the ability to make two 30 mile round trips daily that are at least 6 hours apart for the next 4 years. The Nissan dealer wanted $16K but it had not resolved the 30 kWh battery range issue. Because I already had planned to pay $12K for a loaded 2015 SL off of Craiglist I put that on the table since it was in my pocket. They came back with what they said was their bottom dollar of $13,416.00 and would take a credit card for the difference.

I said yes and the salesman help be find a U-Haul and load the car since I was in my 2010 F-150 set up to tow twice that much weight and I got it home at 11 PM the same day. With nearly two years of coverage from Nissan on the drive train and five on the 30 kWa battery I saw it as a way to meet our usage needs at a relative low risk.

I do think 10 years of lithium ion battery issues may have killed a lot of interest in the Leaf.

With all the negatives mentioned there is a chance EV sales will zoom and if so Tesla may not be set up to zoom up world wide production that much but there are 10-20 non Tesla EV options that were not around 10 years ago.

This 2016 is awesome inside and out but I paid 2x more than I have ever paid for my vehicles. The future of Nissan, Ford and others are just not known today with technology in such a state of flux.

While if I had $40K to spend for a new car today it would be a Telsa Model 3 but the our Leaf should be good for the next 4 years. Then I will be over 72 and the market place with have many options.

My research leads me to expect $15K-$25K price basic EV's from China will be on the market by then if the downward cost of batteries continues with full self driving EV's starting in the $40+ range. Time will tell and the market place will have the final word.

Baby-Boomers are no long in the drivers seat like we have been for the past 40-50 years. Buying a $100K car to make a statement is not as cool as it once was. In 5 years EV's may not even be for sale like to today but will be leased as a transportation solution and the vehicle may be different from day to day based on our needs of that day and it will show up when and where we want it to show up.

I watched Midway yesterday and I am not willing to go down with the Nissan or any other auto maker ship if that does happen over time. Car companies with Union employees and a huge network of dealerships are at high risk of failure as I see it.

The union pay rate is NOT a factor as I see it because the labor to build EV's are much lower. The unions wanting to keep a large number of humans building the vehicles is the issue as I see it. That drives up the unit cost and lowers the quality of new vehicles.

Tesla has a ton of patents on the way they use automation and lower cost ways of manufacturing that are better than the old expensive way of making vehicles. Tesla and Nissan may go the way of Sears and K-Mart one of these days but I do not miss Sears and K-Mart (USA) any longer when I drive past those empty stores. The same will apply to the missing car dealerships going forward in every small town like for the last 80 years.

The EV is a huge paradigm shift and the automakers and consumers just do not know how it will play out. When cars and truck can be on the roads 24/7 without human drivers car ownership I expect will drop like a rock if we can get better service than we are currently paying for vehicles, insurance, fuel, etc today.

I was reading today that the Ford e-Mach is going to come to dealers with the MSRP = Invoice price as a way to more tightly fix the price and try to strong arm dealers into not discounting the car (no sin in charging more I guess). This seems like a way for them to easily parrot the fixed pricing approach for Tesla. I also think it would be good for the Leaf to do the same, as most consumer buy the Leaf for 4-5K less than MSRP. It sounds great, but they could sell a heck of a lot more if the MSRP was 5K lower to start (before federal rebate). This would put the base Leaf on par with the Versa post federal discount, and the Plus in price range with a high end Altima or Lower Maxima. It also puts it 10K below the Tesla with similar mileage capabilities (though hoping that Nissan tweaks up range in 2020). It changes the optics completely.

Good idea to price it at the actual selling price. Dealerships and sales people are going to have to change if they are going to stay around because like Christmas shopping more and more vehicles will be sold online and dropped off near the house with on-site customer service if needed.

First, I disagree with DougwantsaLeaf... Most people DO NOT get $4-5,000 off of list on the the car.. I live in New York, and have never gotten a price with more than a $1500 discount off of List...
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I think that Price is not the issue, and neither is the idea of having NON-Negotiated selling prices.

I think that the problem with EVs, (especially the Leaf) is that they suffer from the Problem of being a Third-Class Citizen... The Leaf, and other EVs are being tightly controlled by all the current Manufacturers' business model to make EVs as a short-term product.

Historically, when GM made the EV1 in the 1990s, the car was GREAT... HOWEVER, they did not sell it, but only leased it. That way, the car companies effectively owned the cars. When the leases were over, GM took all of the cars back (despite activism and protests) and decided to crush all of them (perfectly good cars) and kill the electric car market.

Unfortunately, I do not feel that car companies are truly invested in putting out, and keeping an ever-increasing population of EVs on the road. That would involve a long-term business model, including a long-term maintenance and support structure. I think that car companies want to put out EVs like Apple puts out IPHONES.. We want the new ones, and people throw away the old ones because it doesn't pay to fix them.

Personally, I think the current EV buying problem is that no one is going to spend $35-70,000 on a new EV if there has never been any conversation about how we will keep the car long term. There has never been an up-front system on how to service the motor, electrical system, and how the batteries will be replaced.

After all, no one would buy even the greatest gas powered car for $40,000+ if all we got was the car, AS-IS. I would not buy a car if... when the engine or transmission broke down, I had to junk a perfectly good car that only needed a repair. THAT is what prospective EV owners are being told... After all, almost everyone owns an EV for a few years, and gets rid of it before there are problems.. No one keeps these cars for 100,000+ miles, and continues to service them or replace the batteries.

So in conclusion, my "conspiracy theory self" truly believes that the EV market is currently tightly controlled by each of the car manufacturers to let us have some fun with these cars, BUT THEY control whether to continue or KILL any of the current EVs out there. They ultimately control the cars that are on the road. THEY can easily starve us out of replacement parts, and take the cars out of our hands any time they want when it does not pay for "owners" to repair them. It is funny, although I own my Leaf, i can overnight be forced to get rid of it when I need a supremely expensive repair.

DougWantsALeaf said:

I was reading today that the Ford e-Mach is going to come to dealers with the MSRP = Invoice price as a way to more tightly fix the price and try to strong arm dealers into not discounting the car (no sin in charging more I guess). This seems like a way for them to easily parrot the fixed pricing approach for Tesla. I also think it would be good for the Leaf to do the same, as most consumer buy the Leaf for 4-5K less than MSRP. It sounds great, but they could sell a heck of a lot more if the MSRP was 5K lower to start (before federal rebate). This would put the base Leaf on par with the Versa post federal discount, and the Plus in price range with a high end Altima or Lower Maxima. It also puts it 10K below the Tesla with similar mileage capabilities (though hoping that Nissan tweaks up range in 2020). It changes the optics completely.

Click to expand...

Because once the car is distributed to the markets they announced it will be mostly limited numbers to CA and with the limited supply it will command a high price. Initially it will become a CA compliance car for the most part.

"Sold out int he US" "First-in-liners in other countries still have time to secure one of the First Edition models. The trim level remains available in France, in the United Kingdom, and in Germany, among other countries. All told, Ford hopes to build 50,000 units of the Mach-E during the model's first full production year."

Ford is going to have a supply limited pricing model that will insure CARB credits and high prices.

Overall the LEAF has had very large incentives like lease deals, state and utility credits, free charge cards, and deep discounts at times. Nissan never sold the car in the numbers they anticipated and had to provide high cost hard and soft incentives over many years. Removal of the tax credit is going to hurt even further.

powersurge said:

First, I disagree with DougwantsaLeaf... Most people DO NOT get $4-5,000 off of list on the the car.. I live in New York, and have never gotten a price with more than a $1500 discount off of List...
-------------------------------------------------------------
I think that Price is not the issue, and neither is the idea of having NON-Negotiated selling prices.

I think that the problem with EVs, (especially the Leaf) is that they suffer from the Problem of being a Third-Class Citizen... The Leaf, and other EVs are being tightly controlled by all the current Manufacturers' business model to make EVs as a short-term product.

Historically, when GM made the EV1 in the 1990s, the car was GREAT... HOWEVER, they did not sell it, but only leased it. That way, the car companies effectively owned the cars. When the leases were over, GM took all of the cars back (despite activism and protests) and decided to crush all of them (perfectly good cars) and kill the electric car market.

Unfortunately, I do not feel that car companies are truly invested in putting out, and keeping an ever-increasing population of EVs on the road. That would involve a long-term business model, including a long-term maintenance and support structure. I think that car companies want to put out EVs like Apple puts out IPHONES.. We want the new ones, and people throw away the old ones because it doesn't pay to fix them.

Personally, I think the current EV buying problem is that no one is going to spend $35-70,000 on a new EV if there has never been any conversation about how we will keep the car long term. There has never been an up-front system on how to service the motor, electrical system, and how the batteries will be replaced.

After all, no one would buy even the greatest gas powered car for $40,000+ if all we got was the car, AS-IS. I would not buy a car if... when the engine or transmission broke down, I had to junk a perfectly good car that only needed a repair. THAT is what prospective EV owners are being told... After all, almost everyone owns an EV for a few years, and gets rid of it before there are problems.. No one keeps these cars for 100,000+ miles, and continues to service them or replace the batteries.

So in conclusion, my "conspiracy theory self" truly believes that the EV market is currently tightly controlled by each of the car manufacturers to let us have some fun with these cars, BUT THEY control whether to continue or KILL any of the current EVs out there. They ultimately control the cars that are on the road. THEY can easily starve us out of replacement parts, and take the cars out of our hands any time they want when it does not pay for "owners" to repair them. It is funny, although I own my Leaf, i can overnight be forced to get rid of it when I need a supremely expensive repair.

Click to expand...

You have the conspiracy theory wrong for many reasons. Also there is an exception to all this as there is a company that is making them a priority but they are not a "car company".

EVDRIVER said:

You have the conspiracy theory wrong for many reasons. Also there is an exception to all this as there is a company that is making them a priority but they are not a "car company".

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[/quote]

So you don't think it is unusual that Nissan and other EV companies are not gladly replacing bad batteries and expensive "drive" components to its customers who have bought 500,000 units? All I see is that Nissan Leafs currently have an expected lifetime of about 8-10 years. Is that a reasonable life expectancy? I don't think so...

Please tell us what "company" has made EVs a priority?

powersurge said:

All I see is that Nissan Leafs currently have an expected lifetime of about 8-10 years. Is that a reasonable life expectancy? I don't think so...

Click to expand...

In hot places. Rather longer in moderate climates.

powersurge said:

EVDRIVER said:

You have the conspiracy theory wrong for many reasons. Also there is an exception to all this as there is a company that is making them a priority but they are not a "car company".

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

So you don't think it is unusual that Nissan and other EV companies are not gladly replacing bad batteries and expensive "drive" components to its customers who have bought 500,000 units? All I see is that Nissan Leafs currently have an expected lifetime of about 8-10 years. Is that a reasonable life expectancy? I don't think so...

Please tell us what "company" has made EVs a priority?
[/quote]

I'm not commenting on battery replacement at all. You really can't answer the second obvious question?