GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:47 pm

San Jose voted to impose the ban - see San Jose Mercury News:
San Jose moves to boost electric use in homes, mayor touts electric cars as PG&E power shutdown continues
https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/10/29/ ... emissions/


OTOH, via GCC:
What is the cost of usable energy for driving and heating our homes?
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/1 ... sivak.html

. . . The main findings are as follows:

We purchase substantially more usable energy when we buy natural gas for our furnaces than gasoline or electricity for our vehicles. This is the case even after taking into account the cost of the electricity to power air handlers for natural-gas furnaces and the heat losses through ductwork. In average scenarios, one dollar of natural gas buys about six times the amount of usable energy than does one dollar of gasoline and about three times than does one dollar of electricity.

In average vehicle scenarios, one dollar of electricity buys about two times the amount of usable energy than does one dollar of gasoline.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oilpan4
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:07 pm

It doesn't help any one when they mandate electric vehicles be sold and ban natural gas "to male the air cleaner" then turn off the power.
Or refuse to build power plants then over build a crazy power transmission infrastructure that they can't maintain and causes wild fires.
The road to hell really is paved with good intentions.
trumpvirus
Is going to get you.

WetEV
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Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:52 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:07 pm
The road to hell really is paved with good intentions.
Bad intentions are a faster road to hell.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

Oilpan4
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:16 am

With bad intentions at least you always knew where you would be going and that it wouldn't take long to get there.

Would they be worse off building their own power generation capacity, having thousands fewer miles of transmission lines, maintaining power line right of ways and practicing reaponsible forestry?
I think not.
trumpvirus
Is going to get you.

Zythryn
Posts: 1122
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:49 am

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:36 am

Oilpan4 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:16 am
With bad intentions at least you always knew where you would be going and that it wouldn't take long to get there.

Would they be worse off building their own power generation capacity, having thousands fewer miles of transmission lines, maintaining power line right of ways and practicing reaponsible forestry?
I think not.
You are getting way far afield here.
This is about the first (of many hopefully) city to ban natural gas.
I applaud them for this step.
Here in Minnesota, Natural Gas is almost a given at any house. We specifically built without it for a number of reasons, including energy efficiency, cost, and health.
Previous owner of Prius, Volt, Leaf & Model S
Current owner of Model 3
http://www.netzeromn.com

WetEV
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:44 am

Oilpan4 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:16 am
With bad intentions at least you always knew where you would be going and that it wouldn't take long to get there.
Bad intentions is often masked with Bull Shift.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

Titanium48
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:33 am
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2019
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:04 am

Zythryn wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:36 am
This is about the first (of many hopefully) city to ban natural gas.
I applaud them for this step.
Here in Minnesota, Natural Gas is almost a given at any house. We specifically built without it for a number of reasons, including energy efficiency, cost, and health.
That only works if you have a reliable supply of non-fossil electricity. Otherwise, it is more efficient to burn natural gas where you need heat rather than in a powerplant with 60% efficiency at best.
2016 SL

SageBrush
Posts: 4931
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:16 am

Titanium48 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:04 am
Zythryn wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:36 am
This is about the first (of many hopefully) city to ban natural gas.
I applaud them for this step.
Here in Minnesota, Natural Gas is almost a given at any house. We specifically built without it for a number of reasons, including energy efficiency, cost, and health.
That only works if you have a reliable supply of non-fossil electricity. Otherwise, it is more efficient to burn natural gas where you need heat rather than in a powerplant with 60% efficiency at best.
Ever heard of heat pumps ? One would only need a winter season COP of ~ 1.5 to match combusting NG, and that presumes that the heat pumps are used in the same lousy distribution system as the NG. In reality they are used as mini-splits and the 20-30% losses of distribution are avoided.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Oilpan4
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:02 am

Banning natural gas just puts more load on the aging power grid.
Potentially this shifts peak load from hot summer days to cold winter nights.
An aging overloaded power grid is ripe for failure.
trumpvirus
Is going to get you.

wwhitney
Posts: 768
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 01 Apr 2011
Location: Berkeley, CA

Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:14 am

Oilpan4 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:02 am
Banning natural gas just puts more load on the aging power grid.
Banning new natural gas hookups directs new investment into the power grid, rather than into the obsolete natural gas network.

Cheers, Wayne

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