A close call...

I had an incident today that almost could have been an accident. I was simply turning left on a green arrow and I needed to be in the far right lane, so I could make a right turn right after. The guy in the incoming traffic had red light and was turning right and I thought he would let me pass, but at the last moment it didn't appear so as he didn't even stop and this ended up being a close call. He got pissed by speeding up and passing me in the left lane... The story ends... Not quite.. I parked and went over to ATM, as I return in couple of minutes to the car I noticed someone was checking it out, which didn't seem weird to me at first, but the guy then approaches to me and starts asking why I did not turn onto a left lane... Creepy... I didn't really feel like having this conversation, but he was polite about it even though both of us had different opinions. The conversation lasted maybe a minute, with me getting irritated while getting into a car and him walking away as shown on video. He then proceeded to jay walk across 5 lanes to get a frozen yogurt...

So who is wrong in this situation? He didn't stop obviously on red, but was I ok to turn into far right lane?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcklmCofsCM[/youtube]

Right turn on Red AFTER full stop! There was a single left turn lane right? If there ae multiple left turn lanes the left left turn lane must turn into the left most lane. The right left turn lane can go to the far right lane if the driver wishes.

He did NOT stop on red as required. He should have come to a complete stop at the intersection before turnign right, regardless. Having seen you he legally should yield. That said, many people will do that by mistake, absent mindedness, rudeness or just agrressive, dangerous BMW driver. Too bad he gives other BMW drivers a bad name!

When I make a left into the right lane, I'm always on the look out for that. It happens all the time.

Now, out of curiosity, tell us more about what equipment your using for your 24x7 LEAF cam. Why are you 24x7 videoing in your LEAF? Spill us a teaser on which of the History Channel IRT (Ice Road Trucker) driving sequels we're going to see you on!

IRT: LEAFing amongst the BMW in LA - You ain't seen nuthin' like this!

Here's the scoop, with pictures and illustrations from the source - CA DMV:
http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/turns.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/traff_lgts_sgns.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now, how many people read the instructions on their Christmas presents? Knowing how to drive and knowing the rules is about 30% of driving. The rest is predicting where the crazies are, what they will do and always having a contingency plan in the back of your head ready to avoid accidents from other drivers, road hazards I've had to drive over a full bumper at 70 mph in the road way and control the resulting tire blowout in long beach highway trucker traffic with my family of four in the car. I knew the situation around me and knew that I had no option to swerve without hitting another car. Fortunately we had four hours before the cruise everything was safe - only loss was the tire AND we made our cruise. Some years before that, I had to drive straight over a mattress in the roadway - again no option to swerve. And on mountain roads, beware of rocks, stalled or slow moving vehicles, accidents and bicyclist around every blind corner. Only takes once! Amazing how many people will barrel around a hairpin blind corner at 40+ mph, where if there was an accident there, and there are sometimes, they'd be going to the hospital or much worse...

I'm not sure if turning wide is legal or not, but it is generally acknowledged to be "bad form". That said, everybody does it - myself included. Although I don't do it when there are other cars nearby that might be impacted by it. But the other guy was clearly in the wrong for not stopping before doing a right on red. How's that old saying go? "Two wrongs don't make a right."

GeekEV said:

I'm not sure if turning wide is legal or not, but it is generally acknowledged to be "bad form". That said, everybody does it - myself included. Although I don't do it when there are other cars nearby that might be impacted by it. But the other guy was clearly in the wrong for not stopping before doing a right on red. How's that old saying go? "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Click to expand...

One right left and one wrong right make an accident!!!! :shock:

It was one lane left turn. At the end I was more creeped by him stalking and confronting me.

I am just using cheap DVR, it's not great as you can't make out small details and night driving. It's mainly for fun, and for "just in case" moments. These DVRs are popular overseas, especially in big cities.

http://shop.esino.hk/car-dvr-mini-dv/610-new-hd720p-road-safty-guard-car-night-vision-dvr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks! I didn't know about those car dvr cams!

This will get you higher quality 1080p, but at a larger price. If you've watched Deadliest Catch, you've seen a bunch of footage from it. I don't know how good the night / low light performnce is.
http://gopro.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Both were illegal. His is obvious. For yours, you need to take the left lane, then use your turn signal as you change lanes safely to reach the right lane.

I recently moved from Seattle to San Diego and had to study for the written test for my CA license. I was shocked to find out that it was NOT illegal to turn into the wider (right) lane. The manual said that either lane is fine. I can't speak for the law in Washington but I would not assume it is illegal. The other guy turn right in Red must always yield to someone who has a green regardless if you had the option to use another lane.

chris17660 said:

I recently moved from Seattle to San Diego and had to study for the written test for my CA license. I was shocked to find out that it was NOT illegal to turn into the wider (right) lane. The manual said that either lane is fine. I can't speak for the law in Washington but I would not assume it is illegal.

Click to expand...

You can't assume because the law is different in different states. Like I said, here it is illegal, but I couldn't find WA's law yet. Here's what I found so far:
"Some states are less strict and allow drivers to complete a left turn into either lane of the cross street, e.g., California, Missouri, Texas.
Some states (e.g., Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Nevada, and North Carolina) prohibit entering the right lane when making the left turn."
And to the poster below, we're talking about WA, not CA. I already posted that it was legal in CA, IF it is safe to do so.
I found a recently retired officer in WA, and asked him about the legality, so I will post his answer when he replies.

LEAFfan said:

Both were illegal. His is obvious. For yours, you need to take the left lane, then use your turn signal as you change lanes safely to reach the right lane.

Click to expand...

Wrong on the latter count, at least in CA. See http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/turns.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that was provided earlier.

ElectricVehicle said:

Right turn on Red AFTER full stop! There was a single left turn lane right? If there ae multiple left turn lanes the left left turn lane must turn into the left most lane. The right left turn lane can go to the far right lane if the driver wishes.

He did NOT stop on red as required. He should have come to a complete stop at the intersection before turnign right, regardless. Having seen you he legally should yield. That said, many people will do that by mistake, absent mindedness, rudeness or just agrressive, dangerous BMW driver. Too bad he gives other BMW drivers a bad name!

Click to expand...

Regarding the BMW driver, yes, he was required to stop before turning right on red based on what I saw in the intersection.

BUT (at least in CA), it's not required in ALL cases to stop before turning right on red. Ages ago, when I was learning to drive in high school, the instructor told me about it not being required to stop for a right on red if there's a triangular concrete island directly to the left of you (examples at http://maps.google.com/maps?q=coleman+rd.+and+almaden+expressway,+san+jose,+ca&hl=en&ll=37.24259,-121.874951&spn=0.001178,0.000849&t=h&om=1&vpsrc=6&z=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. That surprised me. A few years ago, there were even a bunch of Mr. Roadshow articles on the so called "free right turn" but they're long gone from the free portion of mercurynews.com and unfortunately, I think the pics are too.

Here's are copies some of the articles:
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/ca-driving/1227/Here-s-a-Shocker-Many-Cops-Don-t-Know-the-Law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BATN/message/46700" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BATN/message/28933" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BATN/message/27924" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One might be able to find better/complete copies by Googling for mr. roadshow free right turn.

Total side note: Since there was a mention of driving over a mattress, apparently, it's quite common for ICE cars to catch fire after doing so.

cwerdna said:

Wrong on the latter count, at least in CA. See http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/turns.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that was provided earlier.

Click to expand...

The biggest surprise to me is that it's different elsewhere! If you're prohibited from turning into the right lane, how the heck are you supposed to get into the business on that corner. Go down a block and turn back? That's just silly!

Stay in your lane! It is common sense, I hate drivers including the wife that take right hand turns and use two or three lanes the same in your case stay in your lane even if it is not the law it is common sense.

Yer he should of stopped at the light, but I if were that driver I assume that the other driver would see that I am turning right and will be turning into the inside lane. I would adjust my turn angle to avoid this exact situation or flash your lights at the driver that you are going to drive into his turn lane.

LEAFfan said:

Both were illegal. His is obvious. For yours, you need to take the left lane, then use your turn signal as you change lanes safely to reach the right lane.

Click to expand...

Leaffan, I didn't assume anything. We are talking about WA here as that's where this incident happened. You stated the above and said that it was illegal for her to take right lane. You didn't say it was illegal in AZ and as you stated your response to me you didn't know what the law was in WA. I simply said it was not illegal in CA and I did not know whether it was in WA or not.

I look at this situation as no different than making legal U turns and having someone attempt to make a right turn on red into the path of my u-turn. It is that person's responsibility to yield to the driver with the green light. It doesn't matter how many lanes are available, if you have the red it is your responsibility to yield. You can't assume the person with the green will select one lane or another. Yes, it is better to stay in the "original" lane you were in but in reality there are situations where it may not be desirable. I don't know how much distance the original poster had before having to turn right but sometimes that distance is just too short (ie. entering a gas station - no pun intended on a Leaf forum).

It is illegal to change lanes during a turn in Washington. You must turn in to the lane
you turned out of to do it legally. If you "must" cross lanes, you should probably have
planned your route better.

That said, most drivers don't know that. Most police officers don't know that. So probably
the only time you'll have a problem is if you're in an accident.

However - You are also required to come to a FULL stop before taking a "free" right.

mwalsh said:

cwerdna said:

Wrong on the latter count, at least in CA. See http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/turns.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that was provided earlier.

Click to expand...

The biggest surprise to me is that it's different elsewhere! If you're prohibited from turning into the right lane, how the heck are you supposed to get into the business on that corner. Go down a block and turn back? That's just silly!

Click to expand...

Ditto.

highcountryrider said:

It is illegal to change lanes during a turn in Washington. You must turn in to the lane
you turned out of to do it legally. If you "must" cross lanes, you should probably have
planned your route better.

That said, most drivers don't know that. Most police officers don't know that. So probably
the only time you'll have a problem is if you're in an accident.

Click to expand...

Do you have a WA vehicle code reference that states this? I've looked over their Driver's Handbook at http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/guide.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and yes, (unlike CA) it tells you to stay in the lane closest to the one you came from and so on, but it's not explicit in saying that making a wide left in the case of a single left turn lane is illegal.

mwalsh said:

If you're prohibited from turning into the right lane, how the heck are you supposed to get into the business on that corner. Go down a block and turn back? That's just silly!

Click to expand...

Not silly at all. Why would you assume you can access a corner business directly from any direction at an intersection?

Pet Peeve: It drives me crazy how many people think that's it's OK to cross several lanes of traffic or cut over at a stop light all because the lane they're in doesn't go where they've figured out they want to go. If you've made a mistake, continue on until you can turn around or circle a block to get where you want to go.

davewill said:

mwalsh said:

If you're prohibited from turning into the right lane, how the heck are you supposed to get into the business on that corner. Go down a block and turn back? That's just silly!

Click to expand...

Not silly at all. Why would you assume you can access a corner business directly from any direction at an intersection?

Click to expand...

Because it's done all the time in CA (where you we (davewill, mwalsh and cwerdna)) all live, it's legal and even shown as an example in http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/turns.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; if there's only a single left turn lane.

chris17660 said:

LEAFfan said:

Both were illegal. His is obvious. For yours, you need to take the left lane, then use your turn signal as you change lanes safely to reach the right lane.

Click to expand...

You stated the above and said that it was illegal for her to take right lane. You didn't say it was illegal in AZ and as you stated your response to me you didn't know what the law was in WA.

Click to expand...

You must have not read my followups. I DID say it was illegal here and I was finding out about WA. I haven't received any response yet from that police officer in WA.

cwerdna said:

Because it's done all the time in CA (where you we (davewill, mwalsh and cwerdna)) all live, it's legal and even shown as an example in http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/turns.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; if there's only a single left turn lane.

Click to expand...

You completely missed the point. He was shocked that another state might prohibit it, and gave the example that he couldn't get into the business on the corner.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/turns.htm#turnexamples" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;