LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 16953
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:53 pm

You aren't going to win many arguments saying, in effect, "That's a nasty question!"
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GRA
Posts: 12906
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:32 am

Drivers will always "break the rules", which is the whole point of taking human factors into account in safe design*, and why the NTSB and consumer groups criticize Tesla for "the lack of system safeguards to prevent foreseeable misuses of technology" when they have the capability to do so. It's also why CR rates Supercruise higher than A/P.

Examples of such human factors design for auto safety to prevent "foreseeable misuses of technology" are interlocks to require the driver's foot to be on the brake before turning the key, or the similar requirement in manual transmissions that requires the clutch to be fully depressed before starting the car. I gather you think both of these are unnecessary regulations, because any accident is the driver's fault. Yet people have been and will continue to be injured or killed by drivers of cars lacking these features, which is why they were made mandatory on all cars produced after a certain year, because the tech to do so exists and is affordable.

This is why the NTSB continues to criticize A/P (and the NHTSA), e.g. the NTSB report in the Delray Beach fatal trailer underrun, the second of this type while under the control of A/P. I guess that qualifies as "just another pointless study" to you, much like Dear Leader's attitude towards medical studies re Covid. The report says:
Based on system design, in an SAE-defined Level 2 partial automation system such as Autopilot, it is the driver's responsibility to monitor the automation, maintain situational awareness of traffic conditions, understand the limitations of the automation, and be available to intervene and take full control of the vehicle at any time. In practice, however, the NTSB and researchers have found that drivers are poor at monitoring automation and do not perform well on tasks requiring
passive vigilance
.

Following the investigation of a fatal crash in Williston, Florida, which occurred in a scenario similar to that of the Delray Beach crash, the NTSB concluded that the way the Tesla Autopilot system monitored and responded to the driver's interaction was not an effective method of ensuring driver engagement.22 As a result, the NTSB recommended that Tesla and five other manufacturers of vehicles equipped with SAE Level 2 driving automation systems take the
following action:

H-17-42

Develop applications to more effectively sense the driver's level of engagement and alert the driver when engagement is lacking while automated vehicle control systems
are in use
.

With regard to Safety Recommendation H-17-42, the other five manufacturers responded to
the NTSB describing the actions they planned to take, or were taking, to better monitor a driver's level of engagement.23 Tesla was the only manufacturer that did not officially respond to the NTSB about the recommendation. . . .24

Probable Cause

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the Delray Beach, Florida, crash was the truck driver's failure to yield the right of way to the car, combined with the car driver's inattention due to overreliance on automation, which resulted in his failure to react to the presence of the truck. Contributing to the crash was the operational design of Tesla's partial automation system, which permitted disengagement by the driver, and failure to limit the use of the system to the conditions for which it was designed. Further contributing to the crash was the failure of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to develop a method of verifying manufacturer incorporation of acceptable system safeguards for vehicles with Level 2 automation capabilities that limit the use of automated vehicle control systems to the conditions for which they were designed.

How tiresome you must find the NTSB, for rehashing the same ideology (of trying to prevent foreseeable accidents and save lives) over and over again.


*
What is the role of Human Factors in Vehicle Safety Research?

The role of human factors research is to provide an understanding of how drivers perform as a system component in the safe operation of vehicles. This role recognizes that driver performance is influenced by many environmental, psychological, and vehicle design factors.

The focus of the research is to determine which aspects of vehicle design should be modified to improve driver performance and reduce unsafe behaviors. An additional focus is to evaluate driver's capabilities to benefit from existing or new in-vehicle technologies. The research supports Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, safety defects investigations, consumer information, and advancement of knowledge about driver behaviors and performance that can be applied to development of vehicle technologies that are compatible with driver capabilities and limitations.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/research-data/human-factors


More damned armchair experts. It's bad enough that they tell us to wear masks, social distance and wash our hands to reduce the odds of contracting or transmitting a potentially fatal disease, but to research and regulate car design to reduce or eliminate accidents, injuries and death? How dare they!
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 839
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:22 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:53 pm
You aren't going to win many arguments saying, in effect, "That's a nasty question!"
Did you honestly think that (GRA's) loaded questions are worth addressing? Did you stop beating your wife yet?
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
:: Model 3 LR (Turo) :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Model Y LR AWD (wife's) :: acquired 30 Dec '20
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 16953
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:42 am

But let's take a simpler question. Virtually all auto accidents but most especially the serious and fatal ones, not due solely to mechanical failure or natural causes (rocks/trees/sinkholes etc. or medical issues) involve violation of one or more traffic laws. Clearly, the surest way for AVs to prevent accidents is to prohibit them from violating these laws.

Do you believe that any company has the right to allow their AV system to violate one of these laws, thereby putting other members of the public at higher risk without their consent, when their system allows them the ability to prevent such violations (always assuming it's working correctly, which is far from a given at this point)?


This is a very reasonable question. Why does Tesla assume the right to beta test their automated driving systems on not just Tesla drivers, but on the driving/walking/cycling public as a whole? Especially when it's known that the system does not understand, much less obey, many traffic laws?
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 839
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:13 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:42 am
But let's take a simpler question. Virtually all auto accidents but most especially the serious and fatal ones, not due solely to mechanical failure or natural causes (rocks/trees/sinkholes etc. or medical issues) involve violation of one or more traffic laws. Clearly, the surest way for AVs to prevent accidents is to prohibit them from violating these laws.

Do you believe that any company has the right to allow their AV system to violate one of these laws, thereby putting other members of the public at higher risk without their consent, when their system allows them the ability to prevent such violations (always assuming it's working correctly, which is far from a given at this point)?


This is a very reasonable question. Why does Tesla assume the right to beta test their automated driving systems on not just Tesla drivers, but on the driving/walking/cycling public as a whole? Especially when it's known that the system does not understand, much less obey, many traffic laws?
cruise control automatically keeps the car going at a set speed (inclines and declines be damned). lane-keep assist automatically keeps the cars within the lane lines (obstacles be damned). The radio has long been a source of distraction, yet was permitted. Why, because it's still up to the driver to use them within the driver's capabilities. Same with autopilot, it's not on by default, but is turned on by the driver, when the driver assumed responsibility and agreed to monitor it. Don't forget that firearms are allowed to be purchased by any adult who assumes responsibility for their use (especially when under the influence).

And in case you've lost sight of it, autopilot accident statistics have been improving and is still less than non-autopilot accidents involving tesla vehicles (not comparing it to NHTSA data in order to make the comparison consistent): https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyRepo ... s%20driven.
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
:: Model 3 LR (Turo) :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Model Y LR AWD (wife's) :: acquired 30 Dec '20
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 16953
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:21 pm

Cruise control doesn't allow the driver to stop watching the road and steering the car. As long as it is possible for the driver to activate an accessory that completely takes over driving, that accessory needs to be able to drive at least as well under all conditions under which it will function, at least as well as a human. Failing that, the system needs to force the driver to pay attention, as do several of the systems in use - but not Tesla's.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6266
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:23 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:42 am
This is a very reasonable question. Why does Tesla assume the right to beta test their automated driving systems on not just Tesla drivers, but on the driving/walking/cycling public as a whole? Especially when it's known that the system does not understand, much less obey, many traffic laws?
For the same reason that student drivers are on road.
For the same reason that Nissan lets people use 'pro-pilot' -- an early alpha version of AP, albeit not labeled that way.

The Tesla FSD beta requires drivers be attentive at all times and to have hands on the steering wheel, ready to take control at a moment's notice. I wish Driver's Ed teachers followed the same standard.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 839
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:42 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:21 pm
Cruise control doesn't allow the driver to stop watching the road and steering the car. As long as it is possible for the driver to activate an accessory that completely takes over driving, that accessory needs to be able to drive at least as well under all conditions under which it will function, at least as well as a human. Failing that, the system needs to force the driver to pay attention, as do several of the systems in use - but not Tesla's.
You can turn on cruise control at ANY POINT in time. It's up to the driver to use it appropriately.

Have you not seen Nissan's pro-pilot in action? What about Mercedes' implementation of L2 drivers assistance. Just because they didn't name their system after an aviation concept, doesn't mean that they aren't marketing the same feature sets, but are less capable at it.

No accessory has yet claimed to be able to completely take over driving! Not even Tesla's marketing material claims this of AP. FSD is NOT AP.
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
:: Model 3 LR (Turo) :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Model Y LR AWD (wife's) :: acquired 30 Dec '20
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 16953
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:01 am

Pro Pilot forces the driver to keep paying attention, and keep hands on the wheel. Since people are sleeping with Tesla's AP on, I don't think it behaves the same way.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2698
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:01 am

Does full self driving require the user to keep a hand on the wheel? The videos suggest not, but I don't know definitively.
2019 S Plus (93.86% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (93.35% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

Return to “Off-Topic”