User avatar
SalisburySam
Gold Member
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 24 Feb 2012
Leaf Number: 018156
Location: Salisbury, NC

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:17 pm

I've reached the limits of my tolerance in this thread for the horsesh and bullsh from non-owners with no actual road knowledge of what they speak. I'll continue to thoroughly enjoy my Model 3 with EAP and FSD and relish the continued improvements over time. G'bye.
Nissan 2012 LEAF SL, 13,500 miles, 9 bars, 30-mile max range

Tesla Model 3: Long Range Rear Wheel Drive | Extended AutoPilot | Full Self-Driving
Delivered: July, 2018 | 12,500 miles
Get 1000 miles free Supercharging: https://ts.la/john70942

lorenfb
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:20 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:No, I'm saying you don't inject human code into a machine self-taught algorithm. You're thinking it's all procedural code (e.g if-then-else), when the code for the driving (steering, accelerating, braking) was most likely machine learned (the object detection/classification is definitely self-taught - that's what the entire autonomy day presentation was about).
lorenfb wrote: Yes, but an A/P oversight system running in parallel could disable A/P under certain conditions. Sorry Tesla, even level 5 (FSD) will need
an oversight/override system (fail-safe system).
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote: That is flat-out suicidal. You don't hand the computer full control and then yank it away under "certain conditions". You can do that with ADAS, because the human driver is supposed to be in control, but in level 5, where the passengers can be asleep?! You are reckless with such an ignorant idea.
Oh please!

Obviously you'd notify the driver and request the driver's involvement. The protocol/procedure can easily be defined, e.g. once a warning
and no response, have the vehicle slowly pull over and stop safety. Hardly a problem! Surely with your understanding of Tesla's A/P system,
you could conceive of an integrated system design, right? If Tesla is incapable of being proactive with solving the A/P's shortcomings and
possible failure modes, then hopefully the NTSB will mandate a fail-safe system! That should be the case for any auto manufacturer
that integrates a FSD system into its vehicles.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:57 pm

lorenfb wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:No, I'm saying you don't inject human code into a machine self-taught algorithm. You're thinking it's all procedural code (e.g if-then-else), when the code for the driving (steering, accelerating, braking) was most likely machine learned (the object detection/classification is definitely self-taught - that's what the entire autonomy day presentation was about).
lorenfb wrote: Yes, but an A/P oversight system running in parallel could disable A/P under certain conditions. Sorry Tesla, even level 5 (FSD) will need
an oversight/override system (fail-safe system).
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote: That is flat-out suicidal. You don't hand the computer full control and then yank it away under "certain conditions". You can do that with ADAS, because the human driver is supposed to be in control, but in level 5, where the passengers can be asleep?! You are reckless with such an ignorant idea.
Oh please!

Obviously you'd notify the driver and request the driver's involvement. The protocol/procedure can easily be defined, e.g. once a warning
and no response, have the vehicle slowly pull over and stop safety. Hardly a problem! Surely with your understanding of Tesla's A/P system,
you could conceive of an integrated system design, right? If Tesla is incapable of being proactive with solving the A/P's shortcomings and
possible failure modes, then hopefully the NTSB will mandate a fail-safe system! That should be the case for any auto manufacturer
that integrates a FSD system into its vehicles.
Oh please yourself. Educate yourself on what level 5 means first, then we can have a serious discussion (hint: what will the car do when there's no driver?). Your condescension is not appreciated.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

lorenfb
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:02 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:No, I'm saying you don't inject human code into a machine self-taught algorithm. You're thinking it's all procedural code (e.g if-then-else), when the code for the driving (steering, accelerating, braking) was most likely machine learned (the object detection/classification is definitely self-taught - that's what the entire autonomy day presentation was about).
lorenfb wrote: Yes, but an A/P oversight system running in parallel could disable A/P under certain conditions. Sorry Tesla, even level 5 (FSD) will need
an oversight/override system (fail-safe system).
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote: That is flat-out suicidal. You don't hand the computer full control and then yank it away under "certain conditions". You can do that with ADAS, because the human driver is supposed to be in control, but in level 5, where the passengers can be asleep?! You are reckless with such an ignorant idea.
Oh please!

Obviously you'd notify the driver and request the driver's involvement. The protocol/procedure can easily be defined, e.g. once a warning
and no response, have the vehicle slowly pull over and stop safety. Hardly a problem! Surely with your understanding of Tesla's A/P system,
you could conceive of an integrated system design, right? If Tesla is incapable of being proactive with solving the A/P's shortcomings and
possible failure modes, then hopefully the NTSB will mandate a fail-safe system! That should be the case for any auto manufacturer
that integrates a FSD system into its vehicles.
Oh please yourself. Educate yourself on what level 5 means first, then we can have a serious discussion (hint: what will the car do when there's no driver?). Your condescension is not appreciated.
You are aware that presently Tesla's machine generated code is not exclusive to the A/P function, i.e. there's a control store that executes
written code based on decisions of the neural network. This written code commands the various vehicle ECUs, e.g. the motor, the steering,
ABS/traction control, etc, and affects how the AI output (neural network) is to be implemented via the ECUs.

https://www.quora.com/What-programming- ... topilot-in
The autopilot team in Tesla is a small but strong team of experts, who excel in computer vision and AI. The programming languages are most likely C or C++ / ASM. As I mentioned earlier, your core skills and previous experience matters. The knowledge of the language gives you an upperhand in the job and they matter in practice.
https://medium.com/self-driving-cars/c- ... 211536a4ad

https://medium.com/@olley_io/what-softw ... 5631071199
All participants involved in the manufacture and operation of autonomous vehicles agree that a set of universal standards must be developed to ensure the safety of passengers and other traffic participants. However, those discussions are still in the early stages and will likely take a rather long period of time to fully develop, which could directly delay the availability of SAE Level 4 or above autonomous vehicles.
https://medium.com/@miccowang/autonomou ... 08182cfaeb
Considering Tesla CEO Elon Musk has been recently saying that future self-driving capabilities will only work with a new computer to be released in the Autopilot Hardware 3.0 upgrade, this updated language makes it sounds like Tesla is now installing the new computer in “new” cars.

We contacted Tesla to clarify the situation about Hardware 3.0 and will report back if we hear anything. As far as we can tell, it is still not shipping in new cars.

Furthermore, Tesla updated other parts of its Autopilot and self-driving capability language to walk back some features, like the potential for self-driving to work with upcoming automated charging station in order to charge without human intervention.

The automaker also removed any mention of the Tesla Network, the company’s self-driving ride-hailing network.

It also added the requirement to have driver supervision even with full self-driving capability.
https://electrek.co/2019/03/06/tesla-se ... confusion/
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:55 pm

lorenfb wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
lorenfb wrote:


Oh please!

Obviously you'd notify the driver and request the driver's involvement. The protocol/procedure can easily be defined, e.g. once a warning
and no response, have the vehicle slowly pull over and stop safety. Hardly a problem! Surely with your understanding of Tesla's A/P system,
you could conceive of an integrated system design, right? If Tesla is incapable of being proactive with solving the A/P's shortcomings and
possible failure modes, then hopefully the NTSB will mandate a fail-safe system! That should be the case for any auto manufacturer
that integrates a FSD system into its vehicles.
Oh please yourself. Educate yourself on what level 5 means first, then we can have a serious discussion (hint: what will the car do when there's no driver?). Your condescension is not appreciated.
You are aware that presently Tesla's machine generated code is not exclusive to the A/P function, i.e. there's a control store that executes
written code based on decisions of the neural network. This written code commands the various vehicle ECUs, e.g. the motor, the steering,
ABS/traction control, etc, and affects how the AI output (neural network) is to be implemented via the ECUs.
Why are you trying so hard?! You don't even know what you're piecing together. At least admit that your earlier suggestion was just a joke and leave it at that. When you're stuck in a hole, stop digging!
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

lorenfb
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:11 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Oh please yourself. Educate yourself on what level 5 means first, then we can have a serious discussion (hint: what will the car do when there's no driver?). Your condescension is not appreciated.
You are aware that presently Tesla's machine generated code is not exclusive to the A/P function, i.e. there's a control store that executes
written code based on decisions of the neural network. This written code commands the various vehicle ECUs, e.g. the motor, the steering,
ABS/traction control, etc, and affects how the AI output (neural network) is to be implemented via the ECUs.
Why are you trying so hard?! You don't even know what you're piecing together. At least admit that your earlier suggestion was just a joke and leave it at that. When you're stuck in a hole, stop digging!
Typical from you, it always comes to an ad hominem.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:15 am

lorenfb wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
You are aware that presently Tesla's machine generated code is not exclusive to the A/P function, i.e. there's a control store that executes
written code based on decisions of the neural network. This written code commands the various vehicle ECUs, e.g. the motor, the steering,
ABS/traction control, etc, and affects how the AI output (neural network) is to be implemented via the ECUs.
Why are you trying so hard?! You don't even know what you're piecing together. At least admit that your earlier suggestion was just a joke and leave it at that. When you're stuck in a hole, stop digging!
Typical from you, it always comes to an ad hominem.
Out of all my posts, and interactions with countless others, you're the only one that I treat so poorly. I wonder why?!
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

User avatar
jlv
Moderator
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2014
Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:44 am

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:There is no image classification for "street" versus "highway" versus "freeway". So telling A/P not to engage on the road its driving entails oversight code that doesn't exist.
There is no image classification to determine road type, but AP does distinguish between them non-the-less and enforces different rules/settings upon the type of road the car is on. I suspect this is still done with map data.

Two examples:

Today, when on a highway you can set the AP speed limit as high as you want. On a secondary road you are limited to 5mph above the speed limit from the map data (AFAIK, AP2 in my car still does not seem to be using the speed limit read from signs).

Prior to an early 9.0, my AP2 car would only allow auto lane change on limited-access highways. A local state route with a speed limit of 55MPH but with intersections and traffic lights would be treated as a highway for the speed limit, but was prevented from doing a lane change.


One thing that's remarkable is that just 2 years I got the first OTA in the car that allowed auto-steer at highway speeds (over 55 MPH). AP2 has vastly improved from where it was when I first got the car. E.g., I remember reading this: https://electrek.co/2017/03/08/tesla-au ... it-update/
Last edited by jlv on Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
LEAF '13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17, sold 11/18) 34K mi, AHr 58, SOH 87%
Tesla S 75D (3/17)
Tesla X 100D (12/18)
85K 100% BEV miles since '14
ICE free since '18

User avatar
jlv
Moderator
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2014
Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:49 am

SalisburySam wrote:from non-owners with no actual road knowledge of what they speak.
This thread often makes me think of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant
In some versions, they come to suspect that the other person is dishonest and they come to blows. The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true.
LEAF '13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17, sold 11/18) 34K mi, AHr 58, SOH 87%
Tesla S 75D (3/17)
Tesla X 100D (12/18)
85K 100% BEV miles since '14
ICE free since '18

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Tesla's autopilot, on the road

Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:34 am

jlv wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:There is no image classification for "street" versus "highway" versus "freeway". So telling A/P not to engage on the road its driving entails oversight code that doesn't exist.
There is no image classification to determine road type, but AP does distinguish between them non-the-less and enforces different rules/settings upon the type of road the car is on. I suspect this is still done with map data.

Two examples:

Today, when on a highway you can set the AP speed limit as high as you want. On a secondary road you are limited to 5mph above the speed limit from the map data (AFAIK, AP2 in my car still does not seem to be using the speed limit read from signs).

Prior to an early 9.0, my AP2 car would only allow auto lane change on limited-access highways. A local state route with a speed limit of 55MPH but with intersections and traffic lights would be treated as a highway for the speed limit, but was prevented from doing a lane change.


One thing that's remarkable is that just 2 years I got the first OTA in the car that allowed auto-steer at highway speeds (over 55 MPH). AP2 has vastly improved from where it was when I first got the car. E.g., I remember reading this: https://electrek.co/2017/03/08/tesla-au ... it-update/
Wasn't aware of this. Good to know. As A/P isn't sanctioned for surface streets yet (and with no rural highways nearby), I've never tried to enable it there.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

Return to “Off-Topic”