dharpers
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Re: DC Quickcharging for Leafs at dealers

Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:27 am

tranhv68 wrote:When I purchased my 2012 Leaf I was well aware of the 73mile EPA mixed driving cycle. As my work was only 25 miles roundtrip, I felt I had plenty of range for commuting and errands for most days. As an around town vehicle it is great. However, I discovered that a DC quickcharger can, when the battery temp is optimal and close to empty, give you a charge at up to 50KW per hour as stated by nissan up to about 80% full. In fact, it only took 18 minutes to put in 12 kwh in my leaf.

As there are many Nissan Dealers in the US and Nissan is actively marketing a Quick DC charger for $10,000.00, how come they don't install DC quick chargers at every dealer for their leafs. This would make the leaf attractive even to those individuals who feel that they need more than 73 miles in a day because they can fill up for a fraction of the time.

Whether it is free, subscription-based or fee per use, I think having DC Quickchargers at Nissan Dealers would be a convenience that would enhance Nissan's commitment to Electric vehicles.

Also, it would be in Nissan's best interest to promote their ChaDeMo standard as much as possible given the SAE has a standard that is set and backed by GM and other Big car companies. I am a huge fan of ChaDeMo, but if the new SAE standard becomes the norm, my 2012 Leaf will probably be the last Nissan EV I own.
------------ Just have in mind that this ChaDeMo is a US and JP Problem ! --------------
I love to drive the Leaf in the US - a really great car.
But in Europe - especially in Germany - everything is different.
Each household has the capability of 21 kW electrical power because 3 phase is standard - used by an electric instant water prep. instead of watertank. So a charger 3,3kW is something to laugh about.
Nissan Germany installed ChaDeMo chargers on Autobahns only. And only a few. To get there you have to enter the Autobahn and drive appx. 10 Miles at higher speeds - draining your battery even more.
On the other hand - Germany hat a good grid of public 3 phase charger stations 22kW and some 43 kW.

And driving a Leaf here gives you a lot of charging problems. If you only want to drive it once a day - ok that's fine. But you will never reach a break even of the investment.
A gallon of gas is $9 here - fine, that sounds good for a change to an EV - but 1 kWhr of Electricity is close to $0.42 too!! So driving a high MPG turbo diesel could be cheaper than an electric car and more flexible.

If you want to use the Leaf more than once a day - which you need to do to become economical -you will have to have a ChaDeMo charger at home. Technical possible since you have 21kW of possibilities already.
BUT a roll-by 22kW ChaDeMo costs 16,800 EUROs - appx. $20,000 and weighs about 100lb. (as it requires a transformer by law)
It would be great to have a cheaper ChaDeMo charger - one that could be placed in the trunk. Then you would be able to use any public charging station @ 22kW ! THAT would be a completely new LEAF feeling !

Renault (majority owner of Nissan) now shows up with a Model ZOE which is based on the LEAF .... and has a BUILT-IN 43 kW 3 phase charger. Fully compatible to 3,7/11/22/43 kW charging systems. The system is called Chamelion Charger.
A 22kW charger outlet at home - built by KEBA Austria - is 899EUR or $1150 and easy to install. So you can re-charge your car at home within one hour.
So it is more than a commuter car. (...by the way: charging at the employer's outlet is prohibited here unless you pay income tax on the electricity !)

The car itself looks like a cheap interpretation of the Leaf, low interior Quality - but the powertrain is as excellent. Comes with a heat pump too and a nominal range of 210km/130mi - 150km/93mi realistic summer range.

So as the knowlege is 'in the same house' - why is the Nissan LEAF not available with this charger here ? A LEAF Europe ? This would be called synergy effect !?
To avoid competition with the ZOE ? Sounds reasonable. BUT:

Why is Nissan investing millions into public ChaDeMos-Stations here which are hardly to use? A Chamelion Charger in the LEAF would be cheaper !

TESLA has done its homework and sells the European Version of the Model S with a dual charger - to be as compatible as possible to the infrastructure.

I would love instandly purchase a LEAF with an appropiate charger ... but noone listens at NISSAN....

Heinz D. Harpers
grad. electrical engineer

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Randy
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Re: DC Quickcharging for Leafs at dealers

Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:55 am

As a point of reference....

At the Plugin 2013 conference, it was mentioned that the average cost for hardware and installation of a DC FC specifically at a Nissan dealer is $49K and change...

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DaveEV
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Re: DC Quickcharging for Leafs at dealers

Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:09 am

Randy wrote:At the Plugin 2013 conference, it was mentioned that the average cost for hardware and installation of a DC FC specifically at a Nissan dealer is $49K and change...
Not bad - I'd bet that's 1/2-1/3 the cost of a Blink DCQC install... I bet you could install 2-3 Nissan QCs at a single location for the price of one Blink DCQC (at least if you limit peak power draw).

shanley
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Re: DC Quickcharging for Leafs at dealers

Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:11 pm

Here's my exchange when asking the "local" dealership about the QC chargers. It started through one of the many surveys Nissan has asked me to complete in the last few months. Oddly, I never did get a response to the question on whether electricity costs them more if it's fast. I did try a 400 mile round trip drive in my 2013 Leaf but as I ran into quite a few attitudes like Brad's below, I'm not sure that I will try it again. Which means that I can't recommend a Leaf for anything other than a commuter car. That's sad to me.

****************************************************************
From: Shanley
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2013 7:41 AM
To: Brad Calvert [mailto:bradc@mossy.com]
Subject: RE: Mossy Nissan Kearny Mesa

Hi Brad,
Is there a difference in electrical costs from the L2 versus QC chargers? And yes, non-EV customers are responsible for buying their own fuel for which there is a huge infrastructure across the country which does not limit their ability to go anywhere. I understand that this is a whole new set of rules for everyone and I’m just trying to understand why the dealerships aren’t willing to work together at least until the infrastructure is in place for EVs as well. After all, the more EVs on the road the better for everyone. We aren’t trying to stop pollution for just our own lungs.

Thank you,
Shanley

From: Brad Calvert [mailto:bradc@mossy.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 6:07 PM
To: Shanley
Subject: RE: Mossy Nissan Kearny Mesa

Hi Shanley, Nissan North America does not pay for the electrical usage of the chargers, that cost falls on the dealerships. The electricity needed to ‘refuel’ the Leaf comes with its own costs, so we try to limit the use of the Quick Charger to those that have purchased a vehicle from us. Right now we are fortunate to be able to offer free charging to our Leaf customers and that’s a real bonus over those customers who purchased a non-EV from us. Non-EV customers receive a free tank of gas only at time of purchase, after which they are responsible for the cost of refueling their vehicles.

Brad Calvert
Service Manager
Mossy Nissan Kearny Mesa
858-565-4411
bradc@mossy.com

From: Shanley
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:12 PM
To: Brad Calvert
Subject: RE: Mossy Nissan Kearny Mesa

Hi Brad,
I actually did buy a Leaf from Mossy so I can use the QC. But my concern is on a larger scale. Why are the QC’s limited? I understand limiting them to Leaf owners in general but if you want to sell more of these cars, people have to know that they can go further than 35 miles from their home without worrying about “fuel”. Didn’t Nissan pay for the installation of the equipment? It shouldn’t take any more electricity than the L2 chargers to fully charge so the limitations don’t seem to be based on cost. So then I’m curious as to why we don’t all work together while the infrastructure is being built.

Thanks,
Shanley

From: Brad Calvert [mailto:bradc@mossy.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:30 AM
To: Shanley
Subject: Mossy Nissan Kearny Mesa

Hi Shanley, thank you for your feedback regarding the use of our Leaf Quick Charger. We currently limit its use to customers who have purchased their Leaf from a Mossy location. However, we have standard charging stations located behind the New Car showroom on the west side of the dealership. You may use one of those stations at any time.

Sincerely,
Brad Calvert
Service Manager
Mossy Nissan Kearny Mesa
858-565-4411
bradc@mossy.com
Last edited by shanley on Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cwerdna
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Re: DC Quickcharging for Leafs at dealers

Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:19 pm

shanley wrote:Here's my exchange when asking the "local" dealership about the QC chargers. It started through one of the many surveys Nissan has asked me to complete in the last few months. Oddly, I never did get a response to the question on whether electricity costs them more if it's fast.
...
It shouldn’t take any more electricity than the L2 chargers to fully charge so the limitations don’t seem to be based on cost.
Unfortunately, in states like CA and on many utilities, it DOES cost more to QC due to demand charges on many commercial electric plans, which I believe are calculated on a 15 minute rolling period. Google for demand charges kw 15 minute rolling period.

I don't know the details of commercial plans about when/whether you'll be forced into one w/demand charges but http://www.pge.com/about/rates/rateinfo ... lservices/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has some samples.

See also these, for example:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14669" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... es#p331355" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... es#p307279" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... es#p296794" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 41#p151141" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 86#p133986" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm sure if you search for demand charges here, you'll find more useful posts. You could also try Googling and Binging (Google doesn't seem to index MNL that well) for site:mynissanleaf.com demand charges.

(I only learned about the existence of demand charges when I took a class on energy efficiency in commercial buildings. I have never (and still haven't) ever been involved w/management or utilities of commercial buildings.)
Last edited by cwerdna on Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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DaveEV
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Re: DC Quickcharging for Leafs at dealers

Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:54 pm

cwerdna wrote:Unfortunately, in states like CA and on many utilities, it DOES cost more to QC due to demand charges on many commercial electric plans, which I believe are calculated on a 15 minute rolling period.
What's disappointing is that once one customer does a QC, the cost of every additional charge only reduces the average cost to charge and if the QC and L2 stations are on the same meter, the actual cost to the dealership to charge is the same!

If they want to give free charging to Mossy customers - fine - but they should simply charge non-Mossy customers a fee comparable to whatever local charging networks charge.

Otherwise all they are doing is turning off potential future customers and discouraging people from buying Nissans in general.

Cpqeng
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Re: DC Quickcharging for Leafs at dealers

Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:56 pm

drees wrote:
cwerdna wrote:Unfortunately, in states like CA and on many utilities, it DOES cost more to QC due to demand charges on many commercial electric plans, which I believe are calculated on a 15 minute rolling period.
What's disappointing is that once one customer does a QC, the cost of every additional charge only reduces the average cost to charge and if the QC and L2 stations are on the same meter, the actual cost to the dealership to charge is the same!

If they want to give free charging to Mossy customers - fine - but they should simply charge non-Mossy customers a fee comparable to whatever local charging networks charge.

Otherwise all they are doing is turning off potential future customers and discouraging people from buying Nissans in general.
I own 2013 Leaf for 3 months now, Nissan already turning me off. I have seen so many Nissan dealers blocked the L2 charger so nobody can use it. So what is good for the environment if we are all going back to gas car. I am pissed with Nissan, it is sucked for wasting my money and time.

LET'S KILL IT

cwerdna
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Re: DC Quickcharging for Leafs at dealers

Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:02 pm

^^^
Kill what? Did you get a written contract/statement stating that you'd have access to L2 or CHAdeMO charging at Nissan dealers?

I've used a QC at a Nissan dealer a whopping one time, and it wasn't a great experience (not so much the dealer's fault though but they could've laid down some policies to make it better). Almost all my charging is via free L2 charging at work. A bit is done at home, mainly on weekends.

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'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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garygid
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Re: DC Quickcharging for Leafs at dealers

Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:29 am

We are working on a mini-QC for the LEAF, and have actually charged
several different LEAFs with our experimental Rapid-Charger, using
a 3D printed plug (we call it Jolomo) that we plug into the LEAF's QC port.

We are still looking for expertise in several areas.

See these topics:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=13349" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14172" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cheers, Gary
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
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shanley
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Re: DC Quickcharging for Leafs at dealers

Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:34 pm

drees wrote:
cwerdna wrote:Unfortunately, in states like CA and on many utilities, it DOES cost more to QC due to demand charges on many commercial electric plans, which I believe are calculated on a 15 minute rolling period.
What's disappointing is that once one customer does a QC, the cost of every additional charge only reduces the average cost to charge and if the QC and L2 stations are on the same meter, the actual cost to the dealership to charge is the same!

If they want to give free charging to Mossy customers - fine - but they should simply charge non-Mossy customers a fee comparable to whatever local charging networks charge.

Otherwise all they are doing is turning off potential future customers and discouraging people from buying Nissans in general.

Exactly, I don't mind paying for the QC so that I can drive up to LA in my Leaf. It's the not knowing if the dealer will let me use the QC. I mainly charge at home, I'm not trying to get Nissan to pay to power my car. I just think that the dealers should work together until there's an infrastructure.

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