Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and ChadeMo

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

TonyWilliams

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
10,107
Location
Vista, California USA
With very little effort, Nissan can put the Frankenplug right next to the Chademo port, where the current J1772 plug is located. Now the car would accept J1772, SAE DC, and ChadeMo.

The effort would not be to foster expansion of Nissan's "competitor" charging standard, but instead to make their attack on Nissan mute. In case you haven't heard, GM is lobbying California to stop deployment of your ChadeMo charging infrastructure in favor of their own "standard". Again, not just a competing standard; they want to stop ChadeMo in the USA.

I guarantee that GM will not offer the same option to have both ports. Advantage Nissan, who can claim all standards accepted, unlike Government owned Motors.
 
Good idea. Because there is no ICE they have extra room for all the countries standards.

They could add the IEC 62196-3 DC Charger and China's Type 2 (DKE) connector (that added a mode that puts DC power on existing AC pins). My gosh how could these folks/countries not use ChadeMo! I'm sure it was the GM influence! You folk's scapegoating is really funny from the outside looking in.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=198914#p198914" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
...SAE endorsed standard will be supported by nine car manufacturers not eight. Renault [Nissan partner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault-Nissan_Alliance" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;] did not participate in the EVS26 announcement of eight, but announced support for this standard separately. One benefit of the SAE standard is that it is also supported by the ACEA in Europe, something which CHAdeMO is not. So there is USA/EU agreement, but it is not perfect without Japan, South Korea and China, all of which have gone in different directions.
 
scottf200 said:
Good idea. Because there is no ICE they have extra room for all the countries standards.

They could add the IEC 62196-3 DC Charger and China's Type 2 (DKE) connector (that added a mode that puts DC power on existing AC pins). My gosh how could these folks/countries not use ChadeMo! I'm sure it was the GM influence! You folk's scapegoating is really funny from the outside looking in.
...SAE endorsed standard will be supported by nine car manufacturers not eight. Renault [Nissan partner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault-Nissan_Alliance" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;] did not participate in the EVS26 announcement of eight, but announced support for this standard separately. One benefit of the SAE standard is that it is also supported by the ACEA in Europe, something which CHAdeMO is not. So there is USA/EU agreement, but it is not perfect without Japan, South Korea and China, all of which have gone in different directions.

Thanks for the GM shill. GM is not trying to stop the Chinese DC standard in China, to be replaced with their own. But they are trying that here, in the USA, with the current ChadeMo that EXISTS in over 10,000 USA cars and dozens of charging stations. There are currently zero cars and zero stations that use the GM Frankenplug.

Then you just reposted another shill for the SAE standard, our friend Ashley, without any quotation, like it was your work. Please stay in your GM world.
 
TonyWilliams said:
Thanks for the GM shill. GM is not trying to stop the Chinese DC standard in China, to be replaced with their own. But they are trying that here, in the USA, with the current ChadeMo that EXISTS in over 10,000 USA cars and dozens of charging stations. There are currently zero cars and zero stations that use the GM Frankenplug.
Is the fact there are nine car manufacturer an incorrect statement?

Name calling?
Re: A shill, plant, or stooge is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that he has a close relationship with that person or ...
As a reminder I never paid any attention to GM/Chevrolet at all before the Volt. I come from a Ford oriented family and have owned a few other brands.
 
TonyWilliams said:
Ok, 9 for Frankenplug. How many for ChadeMo? 9? Does the number matter?

I'd say that two major bodies evaluated the options for world wide standard and agreed is what is significant and matter. Nissan obviously thought the J1772 standard was OK and did not create their own.
* ACEA - European Automobile Manufacturers' Association http://www.acea.be/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
* SAE - http://www.sae.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

European Automobile Manufacturers' Association (ACEA) has a lot of members:
http://www.acea.be/collection/about_us_acea_members/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BMW GROUP - http://www.bmwgroup.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
DAF TRUCKS NV - http://www.daftrucks.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
DAIMLER AG - http://www.fiatgroup.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
FORD OF EUROPE GmbH - http://www.ford.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
GENERAL MOTORS EUROPE - http://www.gm.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
HYUNDAI MOTOR EUROPE GmbH - http://www.hyundai-europe.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
IVECO S.p.A. - http://www.iveco.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
JAGUAR LAND ROVER - http://www.jaguarlandrover.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MAN Truck & Bus AG - http://www.mn.man.de" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dr. Ing. h.c.F. PORSCHE AG - http://www.porsche.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PSA PEUGEOT CITROËN - http://www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
RENAULT SA - http://www.renault.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SCANIA AB - http://www.scania.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TOYOTA MOTOR EUROPE - http://www.toyota.eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
VOLKSWAGEN AG - http://www.volkswagenag.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
VOLVO CAR CORPORATION - http://www.volvocars.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
AB VOLVO - http://www.volvogroup.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
ENIAC said:
How difficult would it be to develop a ChadeMo to Frankenplug physical adapter?

Easy. To make the electronics work. Difficult. Besides, I have a feeling that BMW may want to offer the reverse; Frankenplug to ChadeMo. By the time their i3 hits the streets, there will be 300 or 400 ChadeMos in Europe (now 207) and maybe 100 in the USA. There won't likely be a single Frankenplug then anywhere.
 
GM' found nine suckers for their Nissan roadblock Frankenplug. ChadeMo has over 170 members, and 193 supporting members.

http://chademo.com/pdf/memberlist.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does this mean Peugeot, Citroen and Volvo get kicked out of GM's club (should they ever want to join)? Or just out of Europe?

Oh, those 207 ChadeMo chargers in Europe must not exist. SAE Frankenplug chargers anywhere in the world; ZERO. Chademo: about 1400. Of that total, about 30 in the USA. SAE Frankenplug in USA: zero.

GM Frankenplug cars on the road; zero. Chademo 30,000.
 
As someone who has absolutely no skin in the game, I think the single plug SAE makes more sense from a real estate perspective, as well as being forward compatible with the J1772 L2. I have no idea which communications protocol might be better or why, nor what other electronic/mechanical issues might advantage one or the other.

I do think the number of deployed CHaDeMos is so small currently that it would be fairly easy to switch. After all, there's something like 140,000 gas stations in this country alone, each with an average of perhaps 6 pumps. So compared to swapping out all those, ChaDeMo EVSEs numbering in three or four digits, or even cars numbering in the few tens of thousands (out of 245 million plus in the U.S. alone) seem pretty small potatoes.

I'm sure there will be a period just like Beta/VHS until one wins out. As long as there's a reasonable number of cars for each type, I don't see a major issue. And as pointed out upthread, until affordable battery ranges increase considerably no one is likely to be using these plugs a lot. Alternatively, perhaps we should hold out hope for a battery chemistry that can take a full charge in five minutes (and not be destroyed in short order) rather than one with higher energy density, in which case current ranges become more useful if we have an 'L4' fast charge.
 
> "until affordable battery ranges increase considerably no one is likely to be using these plugs a lot. "

On the contrary. It is precisely because we have limited range in the LEAF that we need the fast chargers, NOW! We have used two of the three in the SF Bay Area just in the past couple weeks. And we will need to use one of them tomorrow.
 
GRA said:
hope for a battery chemistry that can take a full charge in five minutes (and not be destroyed in short order) rather than one with higher energy density, in which case current ranges become more useful if we have an 'L4' fast charge.

SAE has already proposed that (much higher power than Frankenplug or ChadeMo), and that may be the next generation. But, like most things electronic and forward thinking, the Japanese have already DEMONSTRATED it.
 
leafedbehind said:
> And we will need to use one of them tomorrow.

Good luck.
Based on experience with both Blink and Eaton in East Tennessee, DCFC reliability is pathetic and can not be counted on.
Be prepared to wait four hours while using L2.
 
Is there any real reason for opposition to SAE's combined J1772 proposal as the standard here in the US?

If Nissan wants to include CHAdeMO in future LEAFs even after the combined-J1772 standard is accepted, that's their prerogative. Just like it's Sony's prerogative to insist that all of their devices use the defeated Memory Stick despite having lost that format war long ago to SD.

One plug for everything! I support Frankenplug. CHAdeMO should die as soon as the combined-J1772 standard is finalized. We don't need a hodgepodge of different charging station formats out there. Sorry to the early adopters, but that's the risk you take. Don't buy into something that hasn't been standardized yet, and if you do, don't make a huge fuss about it when it gets betamaxed.
 
kubel said:
Is there any real reason for opposition to SAE's combined J1772 proposal as the standard here in the US?

Have you read anything about this? Seriously? Sure, if we don't care about the current 30,000 cars already made with ChadeMo, and 100,000 or more that will be built with it before the Frankenplug shows up anywhere.

The Frankenplug is PERFECT for your area (and kind of reminds me of the last 30 years of decision making from your area). It's a clean slate over there (no ChadeMo) and your neighbors can easily be convinced how this is the best since, well, its from Government Motors.

How come your neighbors from Ford and Chrysler haven't announced any actual participation with the Frankenplug?
 
TonyWilliams said:
kubel said:
Is there any real reason for opposition to SAE's combined J1772 proposal as the standard here in the US?

Have you read anything about this? Seriously? Sure, if we don't care about the current 30,000 cars already made with ChadeMo, and 100,000 or more that will be built with it before the Frankenplug shows up anywhere.
The 30,000? They're OOL. As he said, it stinks for the early adopters but that's what happens.

Now, the 100,000 more? First, that seems awfully optimistic. The available EV choices are starting to accumulate, and eventually choices will pile up. With the big manufacturers using the SAE Combo standard cars that are using the CHAdeMO will stop selling - folks don't want to buy a car that can't plug in to the standard. And, Nissan knows that and probably already has it's CHAdeMO exit plan drawn up.

It's really over. California isn't going to continue installing CHAdeMO when the U.S. & 5 majors from Europe (Audi, BMW, Daimler, Porsche & Volkswagen) are going SAE Combo. Toyota as a last hope? They're not swimming upstream with Nissan because they're smarter than that. Nissan too - I'm guessing it'll be a year or less before they make their announcement.

Really, I hope Nissan does it sooner - it's going to create a huge problem for future customers. Maybe they should add the SAE Combo to the 2013 Leaf - they could make it a gesture of goodwill.
 
I think you are dead wrong, the west coast is already going CHAdeMO full steam and is investing millions in the West Coast Green Highway http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/. Sure the charging stations can be swapped out later but the key is that it's happening now and the SAE is too late for us not to move forward. If all the EV manufacturers were being smart they would make the port plug style easy to swap out, go with CHAdeMO for now and leave it up to the customer to have it swapped out later if the need arises, it's of little consequence that it takes up more room. This way there would be a clear path to getting quick charging out there at this very critical time for the EV market. Producing a car with no Quick Charging port capacity will leave buyers of that car left out in the cold in the very near future, no matter what standard wins out, and slow the adoption of quick charging overall. The Northwest will have the first QC network and I think it's going to be come very evident just how useful, actually crucial quick charging is to the mass adoption of EV's very soon. I drove 160 miles in the Leaf yesterday within just a few hours, all because of 1 quick charger within driving distance of my house, it was very nice and the parking space was free for another car in a matter of minutes compared to the hours it would have taken on an L2! I'd trade virtually all the public level 2 chargers in the area for a handful of well spaced QC's.

GRA said:
As someone who has absolutely no skin in the game, I think the single plug SAE makes more sense from a real estate perspective, as well as being forward compatible with the J1772 L2. I have no idea which communications protocol might be better or why, nor what other electronic/mechanical issues might advantage one or the other.

I do think the number of deployed CHaDeMos is so small currently that it would be fairly easy to switch. After all, there's something like 140,000 gas stations in this country alone, each with an average of perhaps 6 pumps. So compared to swapping out all those, ChaDeMo EVSEs numbering in three or four digits, or even cars numbering in the few tens of thousands (out of 245 million plus in the U.S. alone) seem pretty small potatoes.

I'm sure there will be a period just like Beta/VHS until one wins out. As long as there's a reasonable number of cars for each type, I don't see a major issue. And as pointed out upthread, until affordable battery ranges increase considerably no one is likely to be using these plugs a lot. Alternatively, perhaps we should hold out hope for a battery chemistry that can take a full charge in five minutes (and not be destroyed in short order) rather than one with higher energy density, in which case current ranges become more useful if we have an 'L4' fast charge.
 
gesture of goodwill? It's the SAE that dragged it's heals for years on this. there's no mistaking it, it's the SAE that has waited so long to create a "standard" that Nissan had to move forward with their own. As mentioned, we are weeks away from people getting their hands on the first QC network in the US. CHAdeMO is here now for us all to begin demonstrating the true suitability of EV's for the masses, even if a new standard gets adopted, Nissan has succeeded in outmaneuvering the SAE's heel dragging and pressured them to move forward faster and we will all benefit from that. Carlos Ghosn is a brilliant man!


DANandNAN said:
...
Really, I hope Nissan does it sooner - it's going to create a huge problem for future customers. Maybe they should add the SAE Combo to the 2013 Leaf - they could make it a gesture of goodwill.
 
GaslessInSeattle said:
Nissan has succeeded in outmaneuvering the SAE's heel dragging and pressured them to move forward faster and we will all benefit from that.

Just for the record, you cannot get the SAE standard yet, because the design is still not final. They are still dragging something. All those EV's that Dan thinks will outnumber us, I predict that few will even have a DC charge port of any kind, just like the current Ford Focus and Toyota Rav4.

So far, this is just DC charging by proxy (and marketing). There's nothing behind the curtain (yet).
 
Back
Top