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Re: DCQCs at dealers should be as dependable as gas pumps

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:06 pm
by abasile
EVDRIVER wrote:Dealers are not the backbone of public charging for the LEAF nor should they be relied on for many reasons. They are businesses that need EVSE units to charge new customer cars and are there for the occasional emergency, if they were relied upon for public infrastructure dealers would be dealing with all sorts of issues. I hear this complaint from dealers all the time and Nissan forces them to have EVSE units and in many cases they are in locations that are a pain for a dealer to manage. If dealers want to invite this they sure can but they are certainly not a backbone of anything. Being forced to have EVSE units for customers buying cars makes sense, forcing dealers to make it open to anyone and pay for power and deal with the many problems of public charging at a business place is complete nonsense from a business perspective. If you own a LEAF and rely on a dealer to charge you likely bought the wrong car. Most people that do not own businesses do not have a clue what issues this causes for a business.
That may be true for the L2 EVSEs that LEAF dealers are required to install.

However, my understanding is that dealers can decline to install QC. They can also choose to charge money for the use of QC.

By all accounts, Nissan has been sponsoring the installation of Quick Chargers at dealers in order to provide an initial QC network for LEAF drivers and thereby sell more LEAFs.

We don't rely on dealers for day-to-day charging, but the availability of charging at some area dealerships has made it feasible for us to use the LEAF for a number of medium-length drives. This significantly increases the value of the car to us.

I do agree that dealers are not great places to handle high volumes of charging traffic. Years down the road, particularly as the range of the LEAF increases, it might make sense for Nissan to set up QC "stations" at non-dealer locations, sort of along the lines of today's Supercharger stations. The cost of charging these stations could be baked into the price of the car, or perhaps offered as an option.

Re: DCQCs at dealers should be as dependable as gas pumps

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:12 pm
by DNAinaGoodWay
Hmmm, imagine that, being able to rely on refueling at anytime, almost anywhere, and quickly to boot.

Being able to just jump in the car and go, anywhere you want, with full confidence that at most you'll have to stop briefly to refuel, not even thinking about how far your destination is, or care much about what your fuel gauge reads when you start off.

I can't imagine that my fuel would be free. That would be crazy, free fuel? I sure wouldn't pay extra for a car with free fuel "baked in", if I can get a comparable car cheaper without it. Heck, I mostly fuel at home or work anyway. I expect to pay more if I travel more.

But I do want freedom of travel. Anxiety free freedom, for me as well as for the atmospheric ocean I inhabit.

Dealer QCs are less reliable than I'd like, but if they sell more cars maybe other QCs will pop up elsewhere.

We're at such a primative stage, It'll be fun to see how it evolves over the next few years.

We've been watching a show on PBS about the 80's this week. Part of it was on the introduction of cell phones. Brick sized phones, and phones attached to a bag you carried around, and for only $3k! Someday there'll be a show on how cars could only go 70 miles, and there were few places to refuel.

Re: DCQCs at dealers should be as dependable as gas pumps

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:07 pm
by LeftieBiker
KJD wrote:I would agree that the DCQC should be fixed ASAP when it is broken.

Most Nissan dealers also have more than one L2 charge station on the lot. Why not plug into that long enough to get enough charge to drive to the next DCQC ?

Seems like it would take about the same amount of time as calling a tow truck and waiting for that to show up.
Around here they have one GE Wattstation in the lot, and one in the shop. That's it.

Re: DCQCs at dealers should be as dependable as gas pumps

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:33 pm
by DaveinOlyWA
gas pumps break down all the time. just hard to notice a broken one when there are 11 working ones right next to it

Re: DCQCs at dealers should be as dependable as gas pumps

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:14 pm
by DaveEV
DaveinOlyWA wrote:gas pumps break down all the time. just hard to notice a broken one when there are 11 working ones right next to it
Exactly. The current habit of installing only one DCQC at a location just leads to inevitable stranding should that station break down. Look at how Tesla does it - typical install is 6-8 plugs on 3-4 independent Supercharger stacks.

And despite being 2 years behind the LEAF in sales, at busy locations (like Hawthorne and Gilroy) you still encounter frequent congestion.

At least two independent DCQCs per location should be installed, with a couple J1772 plugs at least for last-chance backup and to charge non-DCQC vehicles.

Re: DCQCs at dealers should be as dependable as gas pumps

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:52 am
by cwerdna
EVDRIVER wrote:. I hear this complaint from dealers all the time and Nissan forces them to have EVSE units and in many cases they are in locations that are a pain for a dealer to manage. If dealers want to invite this they sure can but they are certainly not a backbone of anything. Being forced to have EVSE units for customers buying cars makes sense, forcing dealers to make it open to anyone and pay for power and deal with the many problems of public charging at a business place is complete nonsense from a business perspective. If you own a LEAF and rely on a dealer to charge you likely bought the wrong car. Most people that do not own businesses do not have a clue what issues this causes for a business.
Yep. On this note, I suspect that many (or most consumers) are unaware of the franchise laws generally prohibiting automakers from owning dealers. Even some Leaf owners I've spoken to were unaware. Tesla's fight w/many states has brought this to light for a small set of folks.

Re: DCQCs at dealers should be as dependable as gas pumps

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:13 am
by DaveinOlyWA
drees wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:gas pumps break down all the time. just hard to notice a broken one when there are 11 working ones right next to it
Exactly. The current habit of installing only one DCQC at a location just leads to inevitable stranding should that station break down. Look at how Tesla does it - typical install is 6-8 plugs on 3-4 independent Supercharger stacks.

And despite being 2 years behind the LEAF in sales, at busy locations (like Hawthorne and Gilroy) you still encounter frequent congestion.

At least two independent DCQCs per location should be installed, with a couple J1772 plugs at least for last-chance backup and to charge non-DCQC vehicles.
yep plus the per charger cost is reduced by putting 2-3 in one location.

Re: DCQCs at dealers should be as dependable as gas pumps

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:45 am
by Berlino
DCQC access is very dependable at Nissan dealerships in Canada. It 100% doesn't exist.


There are only two DCQC East of British Columbia in Canada, one of which is at a Mitsubishi dealership. Nissan doesn't invest in any infrastructure here. However, they do force you to pay for the CHAdeMO port if you purchase the SV in Canada, go figure.

Re: DCQCs at dealers should be as dependable as gas pumps

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:25 pm
by mbender
Just an update on Fremont Nissan's DCQC (what started this conversation): almost a month later, it's still not working, and they have no idea when it will be back up and running.

(I called ahead this time.)

Re: DCQCs at dealers should be as dependable as gas pumps

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:16 pm
by Graffi
When we went to the dealer to Lease a Leaf we knew we would get one and do almost all our charging in our garage. However, the salesman at the dealer used the Nissan QC network being set up at many Nissan dealers as a selling point, letting us know that in the not too distant future there would be enough that we could take our leaf on trips out of our local area and not worry about range.

After about 1.5 months of ownership we took a day trip of 230 miles (115 miles each way) using the Leaf. It was to be an all day adventure for us, not a quick trip. We left at 8am Sunday, and got home at 10pm, 14 hours. The first charge was at a dealer about 45 miles from home on a DCQC. The next two were at dealers with L2 only, one for 1.5 hours (Lunch), and .5 hours (to finish the outbound leg and return to this dealer on the way back). The return was in the opposite order, .5 at first dealer, 1.5 at next (for dinner), finally back to the DCQC at the first dealer (we started the recharge just before quiting time so we got there just in time). It was a wonderful adventure, all on fuel we did not have to pay for. However, at only $0.03 per mile it works out to only $6.90 in electricity from the various dealers that we did not get the Leaf from. That was going to be our only road trip in the Leaf, but we just learned that the dealer we spent 3 hours at now has a DCQC right next to where the L2 is located so we may just try it again. This time to a different destination, but only the one DCQC at the midway point and again at the destination. We should be able to make the entire trip on Electricity from Nissan dealers (starting with 100% from home and ending the trip on empty, or close to it. If it looks too close we can stop at the dealer we got the Leaf from for a DCQC addition before going 15 more miles to home.

As for our normal driving our home charging to 80% takes care of our 300 miles per week of driving. We almost never use another charging station any more. However, last Saturday we were driving in the area of the dealer so I dropped the wife off at the grocery store while I went a block down the street to the DCQC at the dealer. I spent 10 minutes there and got about $1.00 of electricity. When I got back to the store she was finished and waiting for me. Otherwise it is not worth the time spent waiting for the charge so even though it is free to us, it is cheaper to pay for it at home.