DCQCs at dealers should be as dependable as gas pumps

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mbender

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
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Location
The Great California Delta, and environs
(or nearly as dependable, anyway.) Shouldn't they? At the very least, they need to be fixed promptly, "I would think". Here's what happened.

I stopped at the Fremont CA (ironically home of Tesla's factory) dealer yesterday with VLB only to find out that their quick charger is out of order and has been for several weeks. I was dumbfounded, quite upset, and unsure of how to salvage my day. I ended up having my vehicle towed to "the next closest dealer" that had a quick charger.

Now, I know I could have checked ahead, but calling to check gets old quick (for drivers and dealers), and believe it or not, not everyone has a smart phone. Also, I admit that I have been "lured into complacency" because I have never had a problem with any other DCQC (dealer or otherwise). Nevertheless, I feel the (long-standing) state of that dealer's quick charger is unacceptable.

I'm sure some will accuse me of feeling entitled, or whining, and blame it all on me, but I do think that Quick Chargers, especially at dealers, should be 99% dependable (or more, five 9s?) and, if they do have a problem, it should be fixed ASAP -- not in a month, or more.

Aside/ps. The tow truck driver said that he had towed a lot of LEAFs in the past few weeks, and I'd be surprised if that was purely a coincidence. It can't reflect well on Nissan or dealerships or EVs in general to have people see LEAFs being towed "all over the place". (On the plus side and somewhat unrelated, he said that he has towed a lot of Volts too, and that their drivers were almost always livid and unpleasant. He said I was very calm in comparison, although 1.) I had calmed down by that time, and 2.) I wouldn't project my anger onto him in any case.)
 
When you can't even rely on a dealer having an L-2 charger out in the open and always on, I think that complaints about QC reliability at dealerships (which we don't even have, here) aren't going to be taken as seriously as might otherwise be the case...
 
I would agree that the DCQC should be fixed ASAP when it is broken.

Most Nissan dealers also have more than one L2 charge station on the lot. Why not plug into that long enough to get enough charge to drive to the next DCQC ?

Seems like it would take about the same amount of time as calling a tow truck and waiting for that to show up.
 
Tustin Nissan's Qc has been down for over a month now... :(

But we do have a ~20kw unit a few miles down the road at least.
 
A dealership is a private business not a place for the entire EV public to get free charging. Just be lucky any dealerships want to even have public EVSE units. No one should rely on any dealer-based EVSE and they should be grateful they are there for use at all.
 
EVDRIVER said:
A dealership is a private business not a place for the entire EV public to get free charging. Just be lucky any dealerships want to even have public EVSE units. No one should rely on any dealer-based EVSE and they should be grateful they are there for use at all.
In the case where someone desires to charge a non-Nissan EV at a Nissan dealership, I would agree with you.

However, the LEAF is being sold to the public with the understanding that there is a quick charging network. Today the Nissan dealers form the backbone of that network. If dealers cannot be relied on, that really diminishes the value of this network, unfortunately. I don't think it is unreasonable for Nissan's customers to expect that good faith efforts be made to keep QCs operational.

I agree that the central flaw in this whole model is that dealers are independent businesses and Nissan's leverage with them is limited. I do hope that Nissan's leverage in this regard will increase as the EV market grows. This sure makes one appreciate the Tesla model.
 
mbender said:
(or nearly as dependable, anyway.) Shouldn't they? At the very least, they need to be fixed promptly, "I would think". Here's what happened.

I stopped at the Fremont CA (ironically home of Tesla's factory) dealer yesterday with VLB only to find out that their quick charger is out of order and has been for several weeks. I was dumbfounded, quite upset, and unsure of how to salvage my day. I ended up having my vehicle towed to "the next closest dealer" that had a quick charger.

Now, I know I could have checked ahead, but calling to check gets old quick (for drivers and dealers), and believe it or not, not everyone has a smart phone. Also, I admit that I have been "lured into complacency" because I have never had a problem with any other DCQC (dealer or otherwise). Nevertheless, I feel the (long-standing) state of that dealer's quick charger is unacceptable.

I'm sure some will accuse me of feeling entitled, or whining, and blame it all on me, but I do think that Quick Chargers, especially at dealers, should be 99% dependable (or more, five 9s?) and, if they do have a problem, it should be fixed ...........snip..........
.....should be fixed, eh?
You wana hear "crying" ??
As Jeremy points out ... you can go to plugshare.com and check out the MONTH long list of complainers at the Tustin Nissan Q.C.
:lol:
Actually - there are now TWO independent QC's, not too far from Tustins' location ... so the odds that you can at least 'get by' have gotten better ... presuming you can limp off to one of the 2 alternatives.
But Nissan's network? Yep. It's like Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown. ... best to call ahead
At least gas stations have lots of pumps, so if one fails, there's another bank usually 100' away at the same station. Or, you cross the street and use another stations' multiple bank of pump. Exasperation is the price we pay as early adapters.
.
 
We are lucky here in San Diego as there are plenty of DCQC stations here and tons of L2 stations, and now with the new EVgo network that's popping up everywhere at a subscription rate. In the begining around Aug 2013 I tried out a few charging stations like Blink & Charge Point at shopping malls just to see how they worked, but since I have not used any. I can do all I need with the charge from home.

All EV's have limits, plan ahead. I could never see myself asking to be towed. I use my leaf to get around town locally and to go to work and back. If you don't have a smart phone to use plugShare or can not figure out the GOM meter then get yourself a LeafDD and use the GIDs as an indicator to get you around. I use my LeafDD daily and it tells me how much I have left in the tank, it plugs into the OBD-II connector which sits just above your knees.

It's good to have charging stations around town, most like 5 miles apart but why even go there, top off if you like but don't ever rely on them.

And what's up with these Volt owners being towed also??? They don't have any gas in them? Sounds like that tow driver was full of ****.


Fred
 
abasile said:
EVDRIVER said:
A dealership is a private business not a place for the entire EV public to get free charging. Just be lucky any dealerships want to even have public EVSE units. No one should rely on any dealer-based EVSE and they should be grateful they are there for use at all.
In the case where someone desires to charge a non-Nissan EV at a Nissan dealership, I would agree with you.

However, the LEAF is being sold to the public with the understanding that there is a quick charging network. Today the Nissan dealers form the backbone of that network. If dealers cannot be relied on, that really diminishes the value of this network, unfortunately. I don't think it is unreasonable for Nissan's customers to expect that good faith efforts be made to keep QCs operational.

I agree that the central flaw in this whole model is that dealers are independent businesses and Nissan's leverage with them is limited. I do hope that Nissan's leverage in this regard will increase as the EV market grows. This sure makes one appreciate the Tesla model.


Dealers are not the backbone of public charging for the LEAF nor should they be relied on for many reasons. They are businesses that need EVSE units to charge new customer cars and are there for the occasional emergency, if they were relied upon for public infrastructure dealers would be dealing with all sorts of issues. I hear this complaint from dealers all the time and Nissan forces them to have EVSE units and in many cases they are in locations that are a pain for a dealer to manage. If dealers want to invite this they sure can but they are certainly not a backbone of anything. Being forced to have EVSE units for customers buying cars makes sense, forcing dealers to make it open to anyone and pay for power and deal with the many problems of public charging at a business place is complete nonsense from a business perspective. If you own a LEAF and rely on a dealer to charge you likely bought the wrong car. Most people that do not own businesses do not have a clue what issues this causes for a business.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Dealers are not the backbone of public charging for the LEAF nor should they be relied on for many reasons. They are businesses that need EVSE units to charge new customer cars and are there for the occasional emergency, if they were relied upon for public infrastructure dealers would be dealing with all sorts of issues. I hear this complaint from dealers all the time and Nissan forces them to have EVSE units and in many cases they are in locations that are a pain for a dealer to manage. If dealers want to invite this they sure can but they are certainly not a backbone of anything. Being forced to have EVSE units for customers buying cars makes sense, forcing dealers to make it open to anyone and pay for power and deal with the many problems of public charging at a business place is complete nonsense from a business perspective. If you own a LEAF and rely on a dealer to charge you likely bought the wrong car. Most people that do not own businesses do not have a clue what issues this causes for a business.
That may be true for the L2 EVSEs that LEAF dealers are required to install.

However, my understanding is that dealers can decline to install QC. They can also choose to charge money for the use of QC.

By all accounts, Nissan has been sponsoring the installation of Quick Chargers at dealers in order to provide an initial QC network for LEAF drivers and thereby sell more LEAFs.

We don't rely on dealers for day-to-day charging, but the availability of charging at some area dealerships has made it feasible for us to use the LEAF for a number of medium-length drives. This significantly increases the value of the car to us.

I do agree that dealers are not great places to handle high volumes of charging traffic. Years down the road, particularly as the range of the LEAF increases, it might make sense for Nissan to set up QC "stations" at non-dealer locations, sort of along the lines of today's Supercharger stations. The cost of charging these stations could be baked into the price of the car, or perhaps offered as an option.
 
Hmmm, imagine that, being able to rely on refueling at anytime, almost anywhere, and quickly to boot.

Being able to just jump in the car and go, anywhere you want, with full confidence that at most you'll have to stop briefly to refuel, not even thinking about how far your destination is, or care much about what your fuel gauge reads when you start off.

I can't imagine that my fuel would be free. That would be crazy, free fuel? I sure wouldn't pay extra for a car with free fuel "baked in", if I can get a comparable car cheaper without it. Heck, I mostly fuel at home or work anyway. I expect to pay more if I travel more.

But I do want freedom of travel. Anxiety free freedom, for me as well as for the atmospheric ocean I inhabit.

Dealer QCs are less reliable than I'd like, but if they sell more cars maybe other QCs will pop up elsewhere.

We're at such a primative stage, It'll be fun to see how it evolves over the next few years.

We've been watching a show on PBS about the 80's this week. Part of it was on the introduction of cell phones. Brick sized phones, and phones attached to a bag you carried around, and for only $3k! Someday there'll be a show on how cars could only go 70 miles, and there were few places to refuel.
 
KJD said:
I would agree that the DCQC should be fixed ASAP when it is broken.

Most Nissan dealers also have more than one L2 charge station on the lot. Why not plug into that long enough to get enough charge to drive to the next DCQC ?

Seems like it would take about the same amount of time as calling a tow truck and waiting for that to show up.

Around here they have one GE Wattstation in the lot, and one in the shop. That's it.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
gas pumps break down all the time. just hard to notice a broken one when there are 11 working ones right next to it
Exactly. The current habit of installing only one DCQC at a location just leads to inevitable stranding should that station break down. Look at how Tesla does it - typical install is 6-8 plugs on 3-4 independent Supercharger stacks.

And despite being 2 years behind the LEAF in sales, at busy locations (like Hawthorne and Gilroy) you still encounter frequent congestion.

At least two independent DCQCs per location should be installed, with a couple J1772 plugs at least for last-chance backup and to charge non-DCQC vehicles.
 
EVDRIVER said:
. I hear this complaint from dealers all the time and Nissan forces them to have EVSE units and in many cases they are in locations that are a pain for a dealer to manage. If dealers want to invite this they sure can but they are certainly not a backbone of anything. Being forced to have EVSE units for customers buying cars makes sense, forcing dealers to make it open to anyone and pay for power and deal with the many problems of public charging at a business place is complete nonsense from a business perspective. If you own a LEAF and rely on a dealer to charge you likely bought the wrong car. Most people that do not own businesses do not have a clue what issues this causes for a business.
Yep. On this note, I suspect that many (or most consumers) are unaware of the franchise laws generally prohibiting automakers from owning dealers. Even some Leaf owners I've spoken to were unaware. Tesla's fight w/many states has brought this to light for a small set of folks.
 
drees said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
gas pumps break down all the time. just hard to notice a broken one when there are 11 working ones right next to it
Exactly. The current habit of installing only one DCQC at a location just leads to inevitable stranding should that station break down. Look at how Tesla does it - typical install is 6-8 plugs on 3-4 independent Supercharger stacks.

And despite being 2 years behind the LEAF in sales, at busy locations (like Hawthorne and Gilroy) you still encounter frequent congestion.

At least two independent DCQCs per location should be installed, with a couple J1772 plugs at least for last-chance backup and to charge non-DCQC vehicles.

yep plus the per charger cost is reduced by putting 2-3 in one location.
 
DCQC access is very dependable at Nissan dealerships in Canada. It 100% doesn't exist.


There are only two DCQC East of British Columbia in Canada, one of which is at a Mitsubishi dealership. Nissan doesn't invest in any infrastructure here. However, they do force you to pay for the CHAdeMO port if you purchase the SV in Canada, go figure.
 
When we went to the dealer to Lease a Leaf we knew we would get one and do almost all our charging in our garage. However, the salesman at the dealer used the Nissan QC network being set up at many Nissan dealers as a selling point, letting us know that in the not too distant future there would be enough that we could take our leaf on trips out of our local area and not worry about range.

After about 1.5 months of ownership we took a day trip of 230 miles (115 miles each way) using the Leaf. It was to be an all day adventure for us, not a quick trip. We left at 8am Sunday, and got home at 10pm, 14 hours. The first charge was at a dealer about 45 miles from home on a DCQC. The next two were at dealers with L2 only, one for 1.5 hours (Lunch), and .5 hours (to finish the outbound leg and return to this dealer on the way back). The return was in the opposite order, .5 at first dealer, 1.5 at next (for dinner), finally back to the DCQC at the first dealer (we started the recharge just before quiting time so we got there just in time). It was a wonderful adventure, all on fuel we did not have to pay for. However, at only $0.03 per mile it works out to only $6.90 in electricity from the various dealers that we did not get the Leaf from. That was going to be our only road trip in the Leaf, but we just learned that the dealer we spent 3 hours at now has a DCQC right next to where the L2 is located so we may just try it again. This time to a different destination, but only the one DCQC at the midway point and again at the destination. We should be able to make the entire trip on Electricity from Nissan dealers (starting with 100% from home and ending the trip on empty, or close to it. If it looks too close we can stop at the dealer we got the Leaf from for a DCQC addition before going 15 more miles to home.

As for our normal driving our home charging to 80% takes care of our 300 miles per week of driving. We almost never use another charging station any more. However, last Saturday we were driving in the area of the dealer so I dropped the wife off at the grocery store while I went a block down the street to the DCQC at the dealer. I spent 10 minutes there and got about $1.00 of electricity. When I got back to the store she was finished and waiting for me. Otherwise it is not worth the time spent waiting for the charge so even though it is free to us, it is cheaper to pay for it at home.
 
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