WetEV
Posts: 4060
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Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:30 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:11 am
Leasing is dumb from a financial standpoint,


Eliminating options w/o investigation is dumber. There is a reason why a LOT of people lease and it aint because they are dumb.
Three reasons:
EV tax credit. Lease to own, let the leasing company collect the tax credit if you don't have the tax liability to collect the full amount.
Business car use. Talk to your accountant. If they say lease, lease.
Incentives. A buddy of mine went to buy a LEAF, came to work with a leased LEAF. Total of all payments was less than the price he could get for a purchase, even counting tax credit. Usually not the case.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15163
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:12 am

WetEV wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:30 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:11 am
Leasing is dumb from a financial standpoint,


Eliminating options w/o investigation is dumber. There is a reason why a LOT of people lease and it aint because they are dumb.
Three reasons:
EV tax credit. Lease to own, let the leasing company collect the tax credit if you don't have the tax liability to collect the full amount.
Business car use. Talk to your accountant. If they say lease, lease.
Incentives. A buddy of mine went to buy a LEAF, came to work with a leased LEAF. Total of all payments was less than the price he could get for a purchase, even counting tax credit. Usually not the case.
"Usually" is changing just as fast as EVs are changing the transportation landscape. Leasing a gasser is a completely different game. What I should do is add up what I have paid over the decade and see if I am ahead on this game.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 14,342.8 mi, 93.16% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 2110
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Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:00 pm

GRA wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:38 pm
Leasing info via GCC:
For highly qualified customers through Volkswagen Credit, the monthly lease payment for a 36-month lease with 10,000 miles a year, is $379 per month with $3,579 due at signing, excluding tax, title, license, options and dealer fees.
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... -vwoa.html

There's also more info there on equipment fit and options.
I am strongly considering leasing one of these, but it will depend entirely on VW's buyout offer. If they let me buy out the lease without repaying the tax credit (unlike the way Chevy does). For me it is a way to reduce risk. VW has a history of wiring issue. And they had the software issues at first with the ID3. I figure 36 months is a good burn-in period. If anything shows up, it's VW's problem. If nothing shows up, I'm more likely to be in the clear. And assuming they have a good buyout policy (a prereq for leasing to me, as stated), I just buy it and keep it.

I am curious about your impressions on the car. It seems to fit (or come close to) a lot of your desirements for an EV. For example, I'm sure it will be long enough for you to sleep in.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

GRA
Posts: 12399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:53 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:00 pm

<Snip>

I am curious about your impressions on the car. It seems to fit (or come close to) a lot of your desirements for an EV. For example, I'm sure it will be long enough for you to sleep in.
As I haven't seen or driven it, I can only give you my impressions based on specs and photos, but here goes.

It's just slightly over the max length I'd prefer to limit it to, 180.5" vs 180"; my Forester is 175.2" which is plenty, and the Niro is 171.7?". OTOH, like most modern cars the wheelbase has been pushed out more towards the ends: the Forester is 99.4" vs. 108.9". This is good if you regularly carry passengers in the rear, but not so good if you want max. cargo space with the rear seats up. The ID.4 is 30.4? Cu. Ft. vs. 32 in the Forester. When carrying heavy, dense objects like scuba tanks I want an upright seat between my body and them, as well as strong tie-downs that will hold them in place in a serious accident.

Length is more important than max. width for me in the area behind the seats, as it's much easier to load/unload and access things like tanks and backpacks if stored lengthwise. I suspect the ID.4 will be a bit short in comparison, but will have to wait until I measure one.

I'll have to hold off on the control ergonomics until I can try them, but I consider having touchscreen rather than physical controls for any control I have to operate while moving to be unsafe and unacceptable. They have provided some physical sliders for temp and volume, and I'll have to see how the rest of the controls and displays work. This is at least a German car, and generally they put more emphasis on function than gadgetry compared to the typical Japanese car, or Tesla.

Similarly, German cars tend to have the ride, handling, seating, steering feel and feedback and driver visibility I want - of the 8 or 9 BEVs I've test driven, the e-Golf was the best in most if not all of those areas, so hopefully that will hold true here.

As far as performance, I'd probably be fine if the AWD version had the same total HP (201) as the RWD version instead of 302, especially if the range were boosted as a consequence. My Forester (165 hp, forget the torque, 3,095 lb curb wgt.) does 0-60 in 9.6 sec. and that has been adequate except on a few mountain roads at very high density altitudes - as a BEV has the same power)torque at any altitude, any accel equal or less than 10 seconds will be adequate, although I'll be happy to take quicker if it doesn't cost me something of more value to me. In any case, passing accel is more important to me than 0-60.

I've been driving Subarus for 32 years, so clearly looks have a low priority for me; how well I can see out and how practical the interior is are far more important to me than what the car looks like from the outside. The ID.4's looks are typical crossover and unobjectionable - enough said. The one thing I do have a question about is the roof slope - some photos seem to show a fairly flat roof, which I want, and others a sloped one which I don't. It's unclear to me if the latter are from the concept and it's now been given a more utilitarian roof. To me the main reason to buy a CUV/SUV is the 'U' function, and detracting from that for reasons of drag is schizophrenic.

I prefer cloth seats and VW tends to use vinyl or leather, but that's what seat covers are for.

Re charging speeds, faster is obviously better for trips. 38 min. 5-80% probably means about 30 from 15-80%, and that's about as low SoC as I'd want to go for both reserve and battery health reasons, although 20% would be better yet. That means about 2 hours at freeway speeds with allowances and reserve followed by 1/2 hour of charging and repeat, which is inadequate for serious road trips but about the best we can expect at current semi-affordable BEV prices, and usefully better than the Niro's 54 minutes from 5?-80% (42 minutes from 20-80%).

And that's about all I can say before we get some reviews or hands-on experience.
Last edited by GRA on Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 12399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:54 pm

IEVS:
Volkswagen Sells Out Of ID.4 1ST For U.S. Within One Day
https://insideevs.com/news/445691/volks ... d4-1st-us/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 12399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:43 pm

IEVS:
How Does The VW ID.4 Stack Up To Tesla Model Y, Ford Mustang Mach-E?
https://insideevs.com/features/445662/v ... rd-mach-e/

Video. I haven't watched it as to me those cars are in a different price/customer demographic, but if you'd cross-shop them, enjoy.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 5802
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Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:04 am

So is it fully autonomous yet?
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

SageBrush
Posts: 5399
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Location: NM

Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:06 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:12 am
What I should do is add up what I have paid over the decade and see if I am ahead on this game.
That would be interesting, although I'm not sure how you would value the car you didn't buy but is paid off and presumably available for your use. Perhaps avoided future lease payments.

I find lease value to be degraded by opportunity cost. As an example, close to 4 years ago I learned of cheap off-lease LEAFs so I sold our Honda Fit for $10k (bought 3 years earlier for $15k) and bought the LEAF for $8,300 less a $2,000 tax credit available to Colorado residents. We still have the car and it appears to have years of useful (to us) service in it. People in leases just don't have the flexibility to jump on deals that show up from time to time.

In a similar fashion, I've given some thought to selling our LEAF to buy a cheap, new Bolt in this window of depressed new car sales related to Covid and the upcoming new Bolt. If I find a great deal I'll jump on it and if not I'll stay with the LEAF until something else comes along. That flexibility is worth perhaps 20% of the car price.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
Posts: 4060
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:12 am

SageBrush wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:06 am
I find lease value to be degraded by opportunity cost. People in leases just don't have the flexibility to jump on deals that show up from time to time.
A lease is a kind of loan. You can pay the balance and own the car at any time. Sure, not the same as owning the car outright and having the title in your safe or your deposit box and can sell it in minutes.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

danrjones
Posts: 786
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:12 am

The first edition says its sold out.

I wonder if VW dealers are going to pull a Ford or Toyota and price it over msrp gouging their customers? (Mache, rav4prime)

I really liked the yellow/gold color but its not a US color.

Well Poop.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

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