GRA
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Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:54 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:18 pm
dmacarthur wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:01 pm
Any 2WD with studs stops as well as any AWD, but there are definitely times when AWD helps getting up hills.....
Any 2WD stops as well as any AWD if the cars have the same tyres.
Any 2WD with winter tyres stops sooner than any AWD with non-winter tyres.

The main AWD advantage is in going uphill. I think it also has some cornering advantage, although that might be implementation dependent.

As I wrote earlier, the AWD hype is strong in America

There is one other reason for choosing AWD plus M+S or snow tires here in California, and it has nothing to do with grip and everything to do with the way chain regs are enforced. Most Californians live below 1,000 feet, so we don't have to deal with snow and ice locally. So, when we drive up to ski, the CHP and other agencies usually skip direct from R0 (no restrictions) to R2 (chains or 4/AWD with snow tires) because they know most people have little experience driving on snow & ice. On the rare occasions they go to R3, they'll probably shut the road shortly thereafter; usually they just skip R2 to closure.

Thus, 2WD with snow tires provides no convenience advantage, whatever the safety benefits, and you'd be driving them on bare pavement most of the time. I've only owned a 4 or AWD car for the past 33 years, solely so I can avoid having to put chains on when I don't need them, not because I need 4/AWD - that's probably been needed to get me up a snowy road a few times, but not enough to pay for it. I've never regretted the decision, as it prevents me from grinding my teeth and my chains down on dry pavement just to handle a few intermittent patches of snow.

Did that and broke a chain once after driving around Yosemite Valley for a week around XMAS, 40+ years ago. There were chain requirements up for the entire 14 mile valley loop, for 3 patches of snow totaling maybe 600 yards on roads which are essentially flat. A cross-link broke as I was ascending from the Valley on my way home, and the chain proceeded to wrap itself tightly around the axle, requiring that I jack up the car and remove the wheel just so I could untangle and remove the chain. Making it more fun, it was at night and headlamps hadn't become the norm, so I was holding a Mallory AA flashlight in my mouth while lying in the snow. The week of grinding had also ground the tread on my rear tires away so they were completely bald. By the time I got finished untangling everything and putting the wheel back on I was furious, to put it mildly, took the other chain off so the same thing couldn't happen again and proceeded to drive out of the park, mind you climbing and then descending on snow with bald tires 16 miles to the park boundary, without any problems whatever. If any ranger had tried to give me a ticket for not having chains on . . . well, it's a good thing that didn't happen, or I might be writing this from prison.

I don't mind putting chains on when they're needed but that's very rare for me, especially now that I cherry-pick my trips a lot more than when I was younger. Despite carrying a set of V-bar chains in my Forester on every winter trip since I bought it in 2003, IIRR I've never had to use them. But I've driven on snow and ice many times, always with contentment that I don't have to put chains on.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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SageBrush
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Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:52 pm

^^ Compliance with a dumb regulation does not a smart choice or safe drive make.
4/AWD with M+S tyres in snow/ice is dangerous. It is tantamount to saying "so long as I can make it *up* a mountain, I'm not worried about sliding down and not being able to stop."

Nowadays 'all weather' tyres with the 3MP standard can be bought. That type of tyre (in good shape) along with 4/AWD would be in the realm of reasonable for the case you describe, but not because of the 4/AWD. And that brings us back to my earlier point: whether by marketing BS or regulation inanity, consumers have been duped into accepting that 4/AWD is a reasonable snow/ice solution. It is not.
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GetOffYourGas
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Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:46 am

danrjones wrote: Also, here in CA you need to carry chains anyway, or face a huge ticket. I'd rather have chains and snow tires on a 2WD vehicle, than neither but with AWD. I've heard chains are not as popular outside the west though.
GRA wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:54 pm
There is one other reason for choosing AWD plus M+S or snow tires here in California, and it has nothing to do with grip and everything to do with the way chain regs are enforced. Most Californians live below 1,000 feet, so we don't have to deal with snow and ice locally. So, when we drive up to ski, the CHP and other agencies usually skip direct from R0 (no restrictions) to R2 (chains or 4/AWD with snow tires) because they know most people have little experience driving on snow & ice. On the rare occasions they go to R3, they'll probably shut the road shortly thereafter; usually they just skip R2 to closure.
Herein lies the reason that chains are not popular in the east. Californians go from summer weather to snow and ice simply by driving up into the mountains. In the east, we live in winter weather 24/7. Chains make zero sense. We need traction all the time, not just on occasional trips into the mountains.

And in the spring, once daytime temperatures are regularly above 40F, I switch back to my summer tires. Snow tires use a softer rubber that remains more flexible at low temperatures. But that also means they wear much more quickly at higher temperatures. If I still lived in California, I would definitely carry chains rather than have snow tires that wear out in a season or two.
~Brian

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danrjones
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Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:54 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:46 am
danrjones wrote: Also, here in CA you need to carry chains anyway, or face a huge ticket. I'd rather have chains and snow tires on a 2WD vehicle, than neither but with AWD. I've heard chains are not as popular outside the west though.
GRA wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:54 pm
There is one other reason for choosing AWD plus M+S or snow tires here in California, and it has nothing to do with grip and everything to do with the way chain regs are enforced. Most Californians live below 1,000 feet, so we don't have to deal with snow and ice locally. So, when we drive up to ski, the CHP and other agencies usually skip direct from R0 (no restrictions) to R2 (chains or 4/AWD with snow tires) because they know most people have little experience driving on snow & ice. On the rare occasions they go to R3, they'll probably shut the road shortly thereafter; usually they just skip R2 to closure.
Herein lies the reason that chains are not popular in the east. Californians go from summer weather to snow and ice simply by driving up into the mountains. In the east, we live in winter weather 24/7. Chains make zero sense. We need traction all the time, not just on occasional trips into the mountains.

And in the spring, once daytime temperatures are regularly above 40F, I switch back to my summer tires. Snow tires use a softer rubber that remains more flexible at low temperatures. But that also means they wear much more quickly at higher temperatures. If I still lived in California, I would definitely carry chains rather than have snow tires that wear out in a season or two.
It probably also has to due with terrain and snow type as well. Sierra snow tends to be very wet and heavy, and the roads are steep. When I lived in MD nobody used chains. But it was also very flat. We did get wet snow there, but I'd say less than the Sierra's. YMMV. Theoretically the CHP can ticket you for not carrying chains in the winter, though I suspect what really would happen is a ticket if you got stuck or were in an accident, and no chains were present. I've never been asked if I was carrying them, but as I said previously I have AWD and M&S tires on my Outback, which as stated above gets me through R1. Since I have that outback, I would skip AWD on my EV. When I eventually go EV only, then I expect one EV to be AWD, and my other probably not.
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GetOffYourGas
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Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:04 am

Maryland gets snow, but not like we do further north. I have never wanted chains even when driving mountain passes in Vermont during the winter. Snow tires are fine. But the Subaru drivers who think that their AWD will save them are the ones you have to look out for. It's scary, but I frequently see Subarus (and other AWD SUVs) sliding all over the roads in winter. AWD is NOT a substitute for snow tires!
~Brian

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LeftieBiker
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Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:43 pm

AWD is NOT a substitute for snow tires!
Indeed. Although genuinely good A/S tires plus AWD isn't a terrible combination, as long as all 4 wheels have the same tires. I wonder how many AWD vehicles come with those sh*tty down-rated versions of good tires that are sometimes provided for OEM use...
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SageBrush
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Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:20 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:43 pm
genuinely good A/S tires
Otherwise know as 'All weather' tyres with the 3MP rating.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:47 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:20 pm
LeftieBiker wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:43 pm
genuinely good A/S tires
Otherwise know as 'All weather' tyres with the 3MP rating.
They don't have to be 3 Peak rated to be good. I've had several sets of A/S tires that were fine in snow but didn't have that rating. The 3MP rating is useful for instantly identifying the best A/S tires, though.
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SageBrush
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Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:02 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:47 pm
They don't have to be 3 Peak rated to be good. I've had several sets of A/S tires that were fine in snow but didn't have that rating. The 3MP rating is useful for instantly identifying the best A/S tires, though.
They do if you want to know that they are good before you buy them.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Re: Volkswagen ID.4 CUV

Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:27 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:02 pm
LeftieBiker wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:47 pm
They don't have to be 3 Peak rated to be good. I've had several sets of A/S tires that were fine in snow but didn't have that rating. The 3MP rating is useful for instantly identifying the best A/S tires, though.
They do if you want to know that they are good before you buy them.
That's a bit of a logical hiccup. They are good or bad regardless of what we know before buying them. A slew of good, believable reviews can also tell you in advance of buying if they are good or not.
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