Toyota Hydrogen Car By 2015 for $50,000

Trying to get out ahead of the successful Leaf Launch

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nb20100507n1.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+japantimes+(The+Japan+Times:+All+Stories)

I'll mark my calendar for 2015 and consider it then.

Where are you supposed to get the hydrogen? Reform natural gas?

Why wait? About eight years ago, GM told us that they'd have 1 million fuel cell cars on the road in 2010. Get out your checkbook!

Of course in the 70's we were going to have them in the 80's. In the 80's they were only 10 years away...

I don't understand why auto companies still think that hydrogen is better than plain battery electric vehicles(BEV). For one thing, hydrogen is extremely dangerous, much more volatile than gasoline. I certainly don't want a compressed hydrogen tank in my car. From what I understand, generating hydrogen is not nearly as efficient as generating electricity for BEV. Generating hydrogen, takes a lot more steps*

Hydrogen Car:
1) Energy from coal, natural gas, solar, nuclear, etc to produce H2 Gas
2) Electricity necessary to compress H2 gas or liquid
3) H2 gas used to produce electricity
4) Electricity stored in battery
5) Run electric motor

Now for BEV, as everyone here is familiar with:

Electric Car:
1) Energy from coal, natural gas, solar, nuclear, etc to produce electricity
2) Electricity stored in battery
3) Run electric motor

* Book: Two Cents Per Mile

Unicorns. I want my unicorn-fueled car.

This gives a good picture of why H2 is so inefficient (apart from all the other problems). This is from prof Bossel, one of the foremost experts on fuel cells.

http://www.physorg.com/news85074285.html

Citation: Bossel, Ulf. “Does a Hydrogen Economy Make Sense?” Proceedings of the IEEE. Vol. 94, No. 10, October 2006.

evnow, that is a beautiful chart! I don't have any particular reason to favor one over the other, but it does seem to me that a whole new generation and distribution system is not a great use of resources. Electricity, even over old grids, is at least built out.

trentr said:

I don't understand why auto companies still think that hydrogen is better than plain battery electric vehicles(BEV). For one thing, hydrogen is extremely dangerous, much more volatile than gasoline. I certainly don't want a compressed hydrogen tank in my car. From what I understand, generating hydrogen is not nearly as efficient as generating electricity for BEV. Generating hydrogen, takes a lot more steps*

Hydrogen Car:
1) Energy from coal, natural gas, solar, nuclear, etc to produce H2 Gas
2) Electricity necessary to compress H2 gas or liquid
3) H2 gas used to produce electricity
4) Electricity stored in battery
5) Run electric motor

Now for BEV, as everyone here is familiar with:

Electric Car:
1) Energy from coal, natural gas, solar, nuclear, etc to produce electricity
2) Electricity stored in battery
3) Run electric motor

* Book: Two Cents Per Mile

Click to expand...

Actually, hydrogen gas is MUCH safer than gasoline. The hydrogen tanks can withstand .45 caliber bullets point blank, and a head-on collision of 100 mph. Can you say that about a gasoline tank? Secondly, hydrogen is 14 times lighter than air and if there is a leak, it just goes up and away. In case of a fire, there are release valves if the pressure increases too much. These tanks are made of composites including carbon and kevlar. Btw, the Hindenburg wasn't destroyed because of the hydrogen. If you watch the video, you can see the hydrogen burn off at the top. What really caused the fire was the idiots coated the airship with powdered rocket fuel and a spark, such as static electricity started it! And what you see burning on the ground is the fire caused from the oil and diesel fuel from the engines.

the reason (AND ONLY) that Hydrogen is even being explored is to maintain a comfort level. we put H in a tank, its like gasoline. there is gauge (although a pressure gauge is not the same as a volume gauge) we watch it run, we can store it, fill up in minutes, etc. its not heavy (but takes up 3 times more space!!)

EVs still have battery issues. we cannot fill up quickly like Hydrogen. even if Hydrogen had a 100 mile range, it would be more accepted because it fills so quickly.

problem is, the infrastructure to build and create the hydrogen would be nearly as expensive as gas. we have no way of making the stuff so factories to produce the stuff must be built. we have no pipelines, no easy way of moving the stuff around. we just cant tank it up like gas. the H molecule is so small that it will simply leak out in the gaps of the molecules of standard containers. the power density is pathetic which means pressurization. its funny that if we had a tank of air at that pressure and poked a hole in it, we would have rocket power to move. wouldnt need electricity....but then i am getting carried away.

EVs will require an infrastructure and a major expense will be needed everywhere we dont have electricity and....umm...hmm...ya so everywhere we dont have electrici...ok, well there will be the cost of these charging stations at probably up to $150,000 or more. compared to a multi million dollar pipeline to run a few miles...ya, ok so EVs would be a bit cheaper on the infrastructure.

we would also have to "make do" until the infrastructure was built up. anyone remember when Arnold got his new H2H (hydrogen Hummer)? well he had a big whoop de do at the airport and was going to drive it back to Sac, but that was more than 100 miles and his H2H only had a range of 50 miles and there were no filling stations and...anyway growing pains!! happens to everyone! now if you had an EV and no infrastructure, you would have to well, i guess the plug in the garage will do...

ya, Hydrogen is a great idea....for someone just not me

?

I work for a city in the Los Angeles area, and although I don't like to bag on it, they are being a bit unreasonable on this topic.

To explain: They have spent a lot of money trying to make Hydrogen work. Converting a LEV (Low emession vehicle) at great expense to get a 40 mile range seems ridiculous, but that is what they started with. Add to this the cost to fuel, (something like $11 a gallon E.) and fiscally it makes no sense whatsoever, but they started the project when times were better and money wasn't so tight, and before the Leaf was available.

They then purchased an "Hydrogen powered" bus. They have yet to use it, although they bought it well over a year ago. First responders haven't had the training was one excuse I have heard as a reason. It sits in the Public Works yard next to the Aerovironment made 480 charger installed to charge its batteries, which is what the hydrogen is supposed to do while driving it I guess. So in essence it is already a battery powered vehicle. The Hydorgen station is placed in an area where the public has access, the 480 is not. I have to wonder if they removed the hydrogen crap and added a few more batteries, what the range would be. I know this was not a cheap bus, yet it has moved no people.

As an employee, you would think they would encourage the EV, especially since they have worked toward a cleaner community by turning the entire fleet of trash, public works, etc. vehicles into natural gas ICE. Yet I can not charge at work, even at 120. I have offered to pay but it still is not allowed.

Sad that our tax dollars are being wasted on this crap.

I can go on and on about how often I see technicians working on the hydrogen station (I laugh aloud at them as I drive by in my Leaf, but it is a sad laughter), how it takes a trained person to use it, and the trailer they use to truck in cannisters since the station must not be that reliable at making the stuff on site. The amount of cameras they have around it tells me that it is a likely spot for bad people to make a loud noise as well.

So why put the 480 charger where people like you can't use it? Where in fact, no one can use it, since it is blocked by the bus? I won't even ask, since I work there. I have already made some enemies through stating facts, but the people at the top want to remain ignorant and waste tax money without giving the people what they want.

If any one here wants details, PM me and we can meet. This needs to stop.

We have one liquid fuel drilling, transport, refining, transport, storage, distribution system already
We have one gaseous CNG drilling, transport, refining, transport, distribution system already.
We have one electricity distribution system already.

Why would we want to create a fourth and more expensive liquid production, storage, distribution system across rural America?
It just feels like a conspiracy of the petroleum industry.
Hydrogen make so little sense to the consumer of liquid based fuels.

If the government forces the issue, then it makes wonderful sense to the millionaire investors in the production, storage, and distribution companies.
and with rapid EV chargers already available for installation, it makes even less sense to create a fourth liquid based fuel distribution network.

p.s. if you passed a law to force every gasoline station in the U.S. to install a rapid charger for my leaf, then I wouldn't have range anxiety as there are very few places in the US that are more than 72 miles from a gasoline station.
p.p.s. I am totally against such a law.

jkyu99 said:

p.s. if you passed a law to force every gasoline station in the U.S. to install a rapid charger for my leaf, then I wouldn't have range anxiety as there are very few places in the US that are more than 72 miles from a gasoline station.
p.p.s. I am totally against such a law.

Click to expand...

Its not a bad law, would even be a good idea to add it to a jobs bill to stimulate the economy. I dont think public charging will ever be profitable, very hard to compete with the 120V plug in your garage, so government subsidized chargers might be the only way.. make them L3 chargers and a few will go a long ways.. one per gas station is more than fine since most everyone will still charge at home. Let L1 and L2 public charger up to the discretion of a business, if they want to attract customers with perks, but a single L3 charger should be mandatory at certain places... and not free BTW, charge a gasoline equivalent cost if you want, we still want to encourage charging at home. Label them in bold letters: "Emergency Recharging Station", that way people will instinctively understand what they are. How long before European countries start implementing this?, Japan?..

Well, that IS what L.A. does best, after-all: Mismanage and squander money...

Caracalover said:

I work for a city in the Los Angeles area, and although I don't like to bag on it, they are being a bit unreasonable on this topic.

Click to expand...

Also, very few gas stations have 440V available...

jkyu99 said:

p.s. if you passed a law to force every gasoline station in the U.S. to install a rapid charger for my leaf, then I wouldn't have range anxiety as there are very few places in the US that are more than 72 miles from a gasoline station.
p.p.s. I am totally against such a law.

Click to expand...

TomT said:

Also, very few gas stations have 440V available...

Click to expand...

Umm, I didn't think of that.
How difficult is it to get it created from the wires that run into commercial buildings?

Ecotality has said you won't see QCs at gas stations because of the dangers of mixing high voltage lines and gas storage in the same area.

SanDust said:

Ecotality has said you won't see QCs at gas stations because of the dangers of mixing high voltage lines and gas storage in the same area.

Click to expand...

sad but true. really makes me comfortable every 10-13 days that i am forced to gas up the Prius

SanDust said:

Ecotality has said you won't see QCs at gas stations because of the dangers of mixing high voltage lines and gas storage in the same area.

Click to expand...

When did they change their minds?

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20101013005656/en/ECOtality-Create-Pilot-Network-Blink-DC-Fast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ECOtality to Create a Pilot Network of Blink DC Fast Charging Stations

Blink Network DC fast charging stations to be located at 45 BP and ARCO locations as part of The EV Project

SAN FRANCISCO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--ECOtality, Inc. (NASDAQ:ECTY), a leader in clean electric transportation and storage technologies, today announced that BP Products North America Inc., a partner in The EV Project, will install ECOtality’s Blink electric vehicle (EV) DC Fast Chargers at 45 BP and ARCO locations. Blink DC Fast Chargers will be available to the public at BP and ARCO locations as early as March of 2011.

Click to expand...

Herm said:

jkyu99 said:

p.s. if you passed a law to force every gasoline station in the U.S. to install a rapid charger for my leaf, then I wouldn't have range anxiety as there are very few places in the US that are more than 72 miles from a gasoline station.
p.p.s. I am totally against such a law.

Click to expand...

Its not a bad law, would even be a good idea to add it to a jobs bill to stimulate the economy. I dont think public charging will ever be profitable, very hard to compete with the 120V plug in your garage, so government subsidized chargers might be the only way.. make them L3 chargers and a few will go a long ways.. one per gas station is more than fine since most everyone will still charge at home. Let L1 and L2 public charger up to the discretion of a business, if they want to attract customers with perks, but a single L3 charger should be mandatory at certain places... and not free BTW, charge a gasoline equivalent cost if you want, we still want to encourage charging at home. Label them in bold letters: "Emergency Recharging Station", that way people will instinctively understand what they are. How long before European countries start implementing this?, Japan?..

Click to expand...

Just got back from seeing the movie, "Revenge of the electric car" and the director was there taking questions after the film.

He said that europe is adding plugs to the parking meters since they are all credit card capable (require power) now. Not fast charge, but all most people will ever need.