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Re: Official Ford Mustang Mach-E BECUV topic

Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:38 pm

jjeff wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:28 am
^^^
PBS's Motorweek this week had a nice short segment on the Mustang Mach-E non-GT and liked it quite a bit, like you they were really looking forward to the GT :D
I will have to check it out. I record them and binges them.
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danrjones
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Re: Official Ford Mustang Mach-E BECUV topic

Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:43 am

SageBrush wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:43 am
danrjones wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:13 pm
But as Alex pointed out,
He doesn't understand the EPA testing either. He said that the 5-cycle protocol gives the highest possible result. That is wrong for most any car not named Tesla 2021.

As more cars include better winter mitigation, they will also move to the 5 cycle test if they can end up with a higher final EPA fuel economy rating.
I understand what you mean, but he isn't wrong that Tesla seems to be optimistic when it comes to EPA range. Tesla chooses the 5 cycle test because it gives them the highest EPA range, right? But that choice of test doesn't give you any actual additional real world range.

I really wish someone had a giant wind tunnel, put each car in it and ran them at 70 mph from full to empty. Give us a REAL WORLD freeway test. That would at least give us an apples to apples comparison for every EV. The "combined" and "city range" to me is pointless anyway. Any EV now has plenty of range for city. If it can go 200 miles at 70mph, you don't really need to worry about city range. I just drove my 2018 leaf 90 miles to my dealer and it barely makes the drive, one way. And its suppose to be "150" miles.

Currently we have EVs doing the simple EPA test, the 5 cycle test, and some vendors also downrate their EPA number. Therefore we aren't getting an apples to apples number that we as consumers can really compare from one car to the next. I personally think that's an issue. YMMV.
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SageBrush
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Re: Official Ford Mustang Mach-E BECUV topic

Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:05 am

danrjones wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:43 am
I understand what you mean, but he isn't wrong that Tesla seems to be optimistic when it comes to EPA range. Tesla chooses the 5 cycle test because it gives them the highest EPA range, right? But that choice of test doesn't give you any actual additional real world range.
The charge of 'optimistic results' is misleading.
It comes from running the same drive in different cars and finding that Tesla is more off from EPA than other cars. That is fine as far as it goes, but it is entirely test dependent. Tesla will by comparison be further from EPA in mild test conditions, and closer to EPA in winter conditions.

If you live in mild coastal CA and never see 353 miles of range in an EPA labeled Tesla you might complain, but if you live or drive in a 4 season climate then you sing the praises of Tesla and never look back. A car that has a higher 5 cycle test result than the 2-cycle test due to winter range penalty mitigations is most certainly going to be reflected in actual additional "real world" winter range.

This range story vis a vis the EPA labeling is not worthless sleight of hand. It really does reflect underlying car differences. And if you ask just about any EV driver with 4 season past experience, they will tell you that dropping to 250 - 300 mile instead of the 353 mile label in summer is no big deal, but getting 200 - 225 miles of winter range instead of 125 - 150 miles in other EVs in the winter is a *huge* gain of practical importance.

Tesla will be open to criticism by trolls and those with agendas, and people who are less than well informed will write as you do without malice. But Tesla owners know the score. As do other people who follow Bjorn Nyland's youtube channel. Highly recommended to you ... for the second time I think.
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danrjones
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Re: Official Ford Mustang Mach-E BECUV topic

Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:43 am

SageBrush wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:05 am
danrjones wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:43 am
I understand what you mean, but he isn't wrong that Tesla seems to be optimistic when it comes to EPA range. Tesla chooses the 5 cycle test because it gives them the highest EPA range, right? But that choice of test doesn't give you any actual additional real world range.
The charge of 'optimistic results' is misleading.
It comes from running the same drive in different cars and finding that Tesla is more off from EPA than other cars. That is fine as far as it goes, but it is entirely test dependent. Tesla will by comparison be further from EPA in mild test conditions, and closer to EPA in winter conditions.

If you live in mild coastal CA and never see 353 miles of range in an EPA labeled Tesla you might complain, but if you live or drive in a 4 season climate then you sing the praises of Tesla and never look back. A car that has a higher 5 cycle test result than the 2-cycle test due to winter range penalty mitigations is most certainly going to be reflected in actual additional "real world" winter range.

This range story vis a vis the EPA labeling is not worthless sleight of hand. It really does reflect underlying car differences. And if you ask just about any EV driver with 4 season past experience, they will tell you that dropping to 250 - 300 mile instead of the 353 mile label in summer is no big deal, but getting 200 - 225 miles of winter range instead of 125 - 150 miles in other EVs in the winter is a *huge* gain of practical importance.

Tesla will be open to criticism by trolls and those with agendas, and people who are less than well informed will write as you do without malice. But Tesla owners know the score. As do other people who follow Bjorn Nyland's youtube channel. Highly recommended to you ... for the second time I think.
Actually I do watch his channel, and I've seen his numbers. I saw his video on the Ford Mach E over the weekend with winter ranges. No heat pump in the Ford, as I thought. But I DO live in a mild-ish climate, and I want a freeway mileage estimate that matches realty, and as you admit, Tesla doesn't. Maybe no one does. Maybe some do. That's the problem.

By all means, take the wind tunnel and do it again and 0f. That would be my ideal EPA sticker, a 70 mph test at 70f, and again at 0f with the climate control set to 65f. Or whatever, just pick something to standardize all the testing. And get rid of the city cycle portion of the test, other than maybe for short range EVs.
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Re: Official Ford Mustang Mach-E BECUV topic

Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:57 am

danrjones wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:43 am
I want a freeway mileage estimate
EPA has your back, but you have to look a little further than the window sticker.
Look up the EPA CSI report for unadulterated Highway and high speed results.
But if the only thing that will satisfy you is the danjones cylcle, roll your own graph with the reported dyno co-efficients along with Bjorn's A/C power data.

It is all there, minus the spoon-feeding. Not that the EPA frowns on spoons, but there are ~ 150 million drivers in the USA.
Last edited by SageBrush on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official Ford Mustang Mach-E BECUV topic

Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:57 am

Here is an actual example of the problem:

I ran the same trip I just did - 90 miles - to my dealer in ABRP for a couple cars.

The current LR model 3: 100% to 69% SOC. RWR: 290
Mach E ER RWD: 100% to 68% SOC. RWR: 281

So these are almost exactly the same, and yet the EPA ratings are quite different: 353 vs 300.
But there real world range in my scenario is basically the SAME.

I get that in cold whether, the Ford's range likely will drop more than the Tesla. But I don't buy that the current EPA system is correct.
In this scenario, either the Ford is under rated or the Tesla is over rated. Or some of both.

EDIT: I added the calculated Real World Range
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Re: Official Ford Mustang Mach-E BECUV topic

Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:06 am

^^
I'm a fan of reading individual test cycle results also, but the EPA seems to think that will overwhelm the American psyche* so they make you get the results from their website. <<shrug>>

* And they are probably right, judging by the goofball use of MPGe, not to mention the inability of half this forum to figure out kW from kWh
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danrjones
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Re: Official Ford Mustang Mach-E BECUV topic

Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:10 am

SageBrush wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:06 am
^^
I'm a fan of reading individual test cycle results also, but the EPA seems to think that will overwhelm the American psyche so they make you get the results from their website. <<shrug>>
Yes, I know. I'm not knocking Tesla, they are still the best. I have a cybertruck preorder... waiting.. waiting..,

Just wish there was an easier way to compare, as most Americans are not going to do what I just did.

But I like your idea, and from now on, that route will be my "danjones" cycle. LOL
I'll run it again later with 0 deg C. I'm sure you are right that Tesla will do well.
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Re: Official Ford Mustang Mach-E BECUV topic

Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:51 pm

I do wish Teslas would show both 2 and 5 cycle epa ranges. That would then be easier to compare the 2 cycle to 2 cycle tests.
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Re: Official Ford Mustang Mach-E BECUV topic

Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:20 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:51 pm
I do wish Teslas would show both 2 and 5 cycle epa ranges. That would then be easier to compare the 2 cycle to 2 cycle tests.
For those curious, my "dancycle" ranges for a few vehicles, 20 deg C, came out at the following below.

I like ABRP and it seems to be accurate but they need data to be accurate, so one can presume that newer vehicles may be less accurate.
I tried the Volvo XC-40 but left it off the list because it seems way too optimistic. Perhaps Volvo purposefully underrated the EPA mileage, or ABRP needs more data. I'm also not sure how accurate ABRP is at low temp. Does it consider heating the cabin or only pack diminished capacity from the cold? I do not know. How does ABRP deal with vehicles where the heat pump is optional? I do not know. No battery degradation is considered.
  • Brand EV 20 C Highway Range 0 C Highway Range
    Tesla 3 LR 290.3 272.7
    Tesla Y AWD LR AWD 243.2 225.0
    Ford Mach E LR RWD 281.3 230.8
    Ford Mach E LR AWD 257.1 214.3
    Ford Mach E SR RWD 214.3 180.0
    Hyundai Kona 219.5 183.7
    Kia Niro 209.3 173.1
    Nissan Leaf (2018->) 115.4 100.0
    Nissan Leaf Plus 173.1 150.0
    VW ID4 230.8 191.5
    Chevy Bolt 225.0 187.5
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