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OrientExpress
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:56 pm

I’m glad to hear that you guys acknowledge the root challenges for BEVs today.

Going forward things will absolutely improve, but today all BEVs have become a surprising disappointment for new BEV owners when it comes to long distance travel. 150-200 miles seems to be the limit of all BEVs, especially Tesla M3s on long trips regardless of their stated ranges.

One of my colleagues just came off of a round-trip from the Bay Area to Denver with 3 passengers and cargo and back where the average speed of traffic on the interstates was 75-80 mph. He averaged about 180 miles/2 hours between charges that lasted about 20-30 minutes each. But he is not unique, every day I am seeing more and more new Tesla drivers world-wide that are complaining with similar experiences.

It does not seem to matter if the charge session is 120miles/15 minutes or 200 miles/30 minutes, it’s still inferior to the average ICE econobox or SUV.

Fortunately long distance travel in BEVs still in the minority of use cases. The Supercharger network as with EVgo and EA are still a patchwork of predominantly lower speed superchargers with the more powerful ones few and far in between. In my friends Denver trip he told me that the superchargers were almost all the older ones, especially out in the I80 boondocks in Nevada, Utah Wyoming and north Colorado.

There is certainly a lot of grandstanding about future technology direction, and I am confident that it will pan out, but it will most certainly take longer than advertised.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

GRA
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:07 pm

Yeah, for those of us who don't require pee breaks every two hours but prefer to drive 4-5 hours between stops, and who are often visiting rural areas where charging infrastructure is few and far between assuming it works at all (see my posts last week in the Bolt topic), current semi-affordable 200+ mile BEVs and their infrastructure fall well short of requirements.

Someday that will change, but the only BEVs that even approach ICE capability now are far too expensive for mainstream buyers, even if they're available in the type desired.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:40 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:10 am
There is just no sense of adventure with a PHEV.

The number of suv EVs is going to go up rapidly this year to come. Even faster in Europe.
True, but that assumes that most people want a car trip to be an adventure. Most people most of the time value the car on trips for its utilitarian function, i.e. how well it provides quick, convenient, flexible, comfortable and affordable transportation for themselves, their passengers and cargo to their destination(s), when they want, via the route they want, without requiring that they make stops when, where and for how long the car needs them, rather than whenever's convenient for them. The adventure comes at the places the car provides access to; the driving itself shouldn't have to be an adventure of the "will we be able to get there at all, without wasting lots of our free time doing so?" variety.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:31 am

OrientExpress wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:47 pm
Unless your house is on wheels, home charging doesn't have much value on a road trip.

That's the issue, long distance travel which in most cases is the 5% task. For the other 95% of travel around you local area, BEVs are the perfect car.

For that 5% task the options are:
Drive a modern ICE that has a 400-500 mile range at highway speeds
Drive a modern PHEV that has a 700 mile range at highway speeds
Drive a BEV that has a 150-200 mile range at highway speeds, along with the added 30-45 minute charge time for every 150-200 mile segment.
ETron has a 200 mile range at highway speeds, and we don't have that kind of range. Every hour or so, I hear "Can we find a place to stop soon?" So I often plan charge stops every 80 miles or so... And the eTron is faster than she is, with 150kW charging.

A recent road trip had a stop for the usual reason and for lunch. With a 50kW charger, we finished lunch at about the same time as the car was ready to go.

How many people can sit for about 10 hours in a car without a stop? Even if you could, is that healthy? A 700 mile range isn't because of any public demand for a 700 mile range. It is because of gas tanks are a standard part, and the fuel economy going up. It would cost money to put in a new smaller tank, so they don't. In many cases it is the same size gas tank as was in the car when the older model car got 15 miles to the gallon.
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DougWantsALeaf
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:33 pm

In my few runs to Iowa city on a charge (from Skokie), we did stop to pee, but not charge. About a 3 1/2 hour run if you keep around 70.

Skokie to Bloomington IN, same thing, stop to pee, but not charge (but would have if EA wasn't broken). That was 4+ hours of driving. Driving was a bit slower.

So, so far the car has been exceeding bladder range.
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
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jjeff
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:23 pm

WetEV wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:31 am
How many people can sit for about 10 hours in a car without a stop? Even if you could, is that healthy? A 700 mile range isn't because of any public demand for a 700-mile range. It is because of gas tanks are a standard part, and the fuel economy going up. It would cost money to put in a new smaller tank, so they don't. In many cases it is the same size gas tank as was in the car when the older model car got 15 miles to the gallon.
It's not for the 10hrs but I like a long-range to avoid paying the exurbanite gas prices in small towns not to mention CAnada. When we take our 500 mile Prius to CA every(not this one :( ) summer we fill up at home at Costco for the lowest price gas, then our next fill is at the CA border, much more expensive than home but far cheaper than CA! We drive about 500 miles in CA, then fill up at the MN border on our way back and never have to pay their 50% higher fuel and I also don't have to worry about converting L's to G's for figuring out MPG, also don't have to pay with CA $'s but with CC's that's a moot point, well other than converting CA $'s to US$'s to know just how high their gas prices are.
I don't like filling up gas, I LIKE the largest gas tank I can get with the highest MPG I can get, simple as that :)
The RAV4 Prime will be nice for our CA trip, it will also be nice to take advantage of all the large hills along the N. Shore of Lake Superior. With our Prius the battery gets empty far before the top of the hills and then gets overfull during the long downhills, requiring me to have to use the friction brakes. It will be nice to be able to charge at our destination and have 40 miles of pure EV driving, this should easily save 5 or more gallons of gas, should be no problem at all not having to purchase gas in CA :)
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GRA
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:05 pm

WetEV wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:31 am
OrientExpress wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:47 pm
Unless your house is on wheels, home charging doesn't have much value on a road trip.

That's the issue, long distance travel which in most cases is the 5% task. For the other 95% of travel around you local area, BEVs are the perfect car.

For that 5% task the options are:
Drive a modern ICE that has a 400-500 mile range at highway speeds
Drive a modern PHEV that has a 700 mile range at highway speeds
Drive a BEV that has a 150-200 mile range at highway speeds, along with the added 30-45 minute charge time for every 150-200 mile segment.
ETron has a 200 mile range at highway speeds, and we don't have that kind of range. Every hour or so, I hear "Can we find a place to stop soon?" So I often plan charge stops every 80 miles or so... And the eTron is faster than she is, with 150kW charging.

A recent road trip had a stop for the usual reason and for lunch. With a 50kW charger, we finished lunch at about the same time as the car was ready to go.

How many people can sit for about 10 hours in a car without a stop? Even if you could, is that healthy? A 700 mile range isn't because of any public demand for a 700 mile range. It is because of gas tanks are a standard part, and the fuel economy going up. It would cost money to put in a new smaller tank, so they don't. In many cases it is the same size gas tank as was in the car when the older model car got 15 miles to the gallon.
We'd previously discussed this claim, and as I pointed out the new through three generations of Rav4 Toyota changed the size of the tank for each generation, and the range increased each time. While few want to drive 10 hours at a time (6 is about my limit), lots of people appreciate not having to gas up on a weekend road round trip, and even more like only having to go to a gas station every other week instead of every week in routine daily use.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 12399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:21 pm

jjeff wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:23 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:31 am
How many people can sit for about 10 hours in a car without a stop? Even if you could, is that healthy? A 700 mile range isn't because of any public demand for a 700-mile range. It is because of gas tanks are a standard part, and the fuel economy going up. It would cost money to put in a new smaller tank, so they don't. In many cases it is the same size gas tank as was in the car when the older model car got 15 miles to the gallon.
It's not for the 10hrs but I like a long-range to avoid paying the exurbanite gas prices in small towns not to mention CAnada. <Snip>

Yup. Example, I usually fill my tank in either Tracy, Manteca or Oakdale on the way over to the east side of the Sierra, as gas is cheaper there than in the Bay Area, and far cheaper than on the east side. As my car has a no worries HWY range of at least 400 miles plus at least a 30 mile reserve while using heat or more rarely A/C, this allows me to do most round trips from that point to the east side and back, and often all the way home, unrefueled. On one such trip a few years back I noted gas prices: Oakdale, $3.68/gal. Lee Vining, $4.90. Bridgeport, $5.10. I'm very glad my car's range allows me to avoid paying for most and usually all of my gas at mountain monopoly prices.

Give me a car with 700 miles of HWY range and I could do the 692 mile round trip from home to Whitney Portal unrefueled, with the option to fill the tank with the lowest-priced gas I found anywhere along the way if I choose. As long as the bigger tank doesn't encroach on cargo space* or have some other negative effect, the more range the better.


* Like the optional 25 gal. aux. tank my dad had installed in the trunk of his 1976 Peugeot 504D, which, added to the standard 15 gal. tank the car had and the 30 mpg. it got on the highway, meant he could go almost 1,200 miles between fuel stops. He did that because at the time he bought the car few gas stations carried diesel, and most truck stops didn't want to waste their time with such a small amount of fuel. ISTR there was also some issue with fuel taxes at such stops. He also had an iron ass, and AFAICT would have done the 640 miles between Oakland and my cousins' place in the Portland area non-stop, if I didn't need to stop for at least one food and bathroom break enroute.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:58 am

OrientExpress wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:56 pm
I’m glad to hear
You hear what you want to hear.
I was only saying that your statements are are at best distorted spin and FUD.

As usual
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Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
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03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1586
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:28 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:58 am
You hear what you want to hear.
I was only saying that your statements are are at best distorted spin and FUD.

As usual
My goodness! I'm sorry that this sort of stuff is so difficult for you.

https://insideevs.com/reviews/450140/to ... est-drive/
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

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