dmacarthur
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:51 pm

My inlaws just bought a Tesla, they have been known to accelerate "somewhat" briskly!
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goldbrick
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:53 pm

Accelerating quickly also gets the car to a faster velocity sooner so it will spend more time pushing air at that velocity than a slower start. Probably not measurable but it's a factor.

I think the bigger contributor would be the quick stops. This implies brake use which converts kinetic energy to heat with an efficiency of about 100%. Using regen will get some of that back but there are losses there as well. So start fast if you like but coast as long as possible before stopping if maximum range is the goal.

DougWantsALeaf
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:16 pm

You also have more heat loss with both acceleration and regen/stopping than gentle velocity changes.
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danrjones
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:52 pm

goldbrick wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:53 pm
Accelerating quickly also gets the car to a faster velocity sooner so it will spend more time pushing air at that velocity than a slower start. Probably not measurable but it's a factor.

I think the bigger contributor would be the quick stops. This implies brake use which converts kinetic energy to heat with an efficiency of about 100%. Using regen will get some of that back but there are losses there as well. So start fast if you like but coast as long as possible before stopping if maximum range is the goal.
That also may be more or less of an impact based on the EV. I haven't driven a Tesla but don't they ONLY do regen on one pedal driving? That is, if you hit the brake, it never uses regen?

One thing I DO like on the leaf is how smooth it is between brake and regen, and the fact I can choose two pedal driving and still get regen. You might be tempted to ask why use two pedals, and the answer is that my Leaf always turns one pedal or epedal back off, so sometimes for short drives I forget. Moreover, because my wife often drives our outback, when she does drive the leaf it is easier to keep her using two pedal driving. So its nice to get that regen from the actual brake pedal.
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GRA
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:25 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:52 pm
It is amusing that I am the only one here who has owned a PHEV, let along owned one and praised it repeatedly in this forum.
I have also said that my objection is not to the design but to the fleet results, which in my opinion argues against PHEV subsidy. And face it folks, without subsidy PHEV sales would dry up as fast as GRA could say "I drive a 20 mpg ICE."

As for @orient and his usual BS, I decided to correct his FUD that EVs must stop every ~ 150 miles for 30 - 45 minutes. Just because it is true for some EVs does not give him license to concoct a BS narrative

Please explain how prior ownershio of a PHEV gives you some special insight into the operational capabilities of liquid-fueled ICEs and their infrastructure vs. BEVs and theirs. After all, everyone here has decades of experience with the former, regardless of whether the ICE is powering the car directly or through an electric motor as an HEV.

Re subsidies, without them, perks like SO HOV stickers, free parking and no tills, and government mandates or ZEV zones, BEV sales would similarly dry up. All AFV sales remain dependent on one or more of the above, except those sold to people for whom transportation value for the dollar is of little or no concern.

BTW, my ICE is rated at 27 HWY (25 under the current test regimen), and I normally get 28-30 on trips, which constitute 90-95% of my usage.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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LeftieBiker
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:45 pm

It is amusing that I am the only one here who has owned a PHEV, let along owned one and praised it repeatedly in this forum.
I had missed this. We had a PHEV in our two person family for seven years. We got it at my urging. I drove it often some years, less often others. I worked on it occasionally. It was actually me who, along with other PIP drivers, hounded Toyota to add cabin heat, preferably a heat pump. Does the fact that my name wasn't on the title really mean anything?

(BTW: the saying is "let alone")
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WetEV
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:52 am

GRA wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:25 pm
Re subsidies, without them, perks like SO HOV stickers, free parking and no tills, and government mandates or ZEV zones, BEV sales would similarly dry up. All AFV sales remain dependent on one or more of the above, except those sold to people for whom transportation value for the dollar is of little or no concern.
BS and off topic. Bicycle has better "transportation value per dollar", how many people are cycling to work? Transportation is more than getting from A to B. iMiev was probably the cheapest car new car to own for many in the PNW in 2011, and did many sell? No.

GRA wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:25 pm
BTW, my ICE is rated at 27 HWY (25 under the current test regimen), and I normally get 28-30 on trips, which constitute 90-95% of my usage.
Almost the reverse of the average American usage. 85% trip miles under 100 miles.

Image

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformat ... fig4_5.cfm

GRA should drive an ICE.

So back to PHEVs. They make sense if you have long trips beyond easy BEV infrastructure AND have lots of short trips in battery range. Your four yearly trips to Sleeping Buffalo, Montana will be just as easy as if you had an ICE, and you daily trips will be just as nice as if you had a BEV.

A BEV would be better if you have lots of short trips and few trips beyond range into places with reasonable BEV infrastructure.

Hydrogen might make sense for long distance trucking.

The cheapest way of getting there is likely walking, bicycle or bus.
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SageBrush
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:54 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:45 pm
It is amusing that I am the only one here who has owned a PHEV, let along owned one and praised it repeatedly in this forum.
I had missed this. We had a PHEV in our two person family for seven years. We got it at my urging. I drove it often some years, less often others. I worked on it occasionally. It was actually me who, along with other PIP drivers, hounded Toyota to add cabin heat, preferably a heat pump. Does the fact that my name wasn't on the title really mean anything?

(BTW: the saying is "let alone")
Yes, that was a typo.

You often characterize the other person that lives in the house you live in as your 'housemate.' And it was her car (and I presume her money), not yours. So it seemed reasonable to exclude you from the dataset. Have I brought you two closer together ? ;)
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SageBrush
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:16 am

goldbrick wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:53 pm
I think the bigger contributor would be the quick stops. This implies brake use which converts kinetic energy to heat with an efficiency of about 100%. Using regen will get some of that back but there are losses there as well. So start fast if you like but coast as long as possible before stopping if maximum range is the goal.
Pretty much, although *some* coasting rather than max coasting is also quite effective in a car with regen.

I've estimated stopping losses while driving my Tesla in our small-ish city.
The Tesla has excellent regen -- on the order of 2/3 of KE.
If my baseline is 40 mph to 0 mph using friction brakes,

Then in comparison in my Tesla:
I coast down to 30 mph, and then collect 2/3 of the KE available
The coasting used up 1/4 of the starting speed, so 9/16 of the initial KE remain
Regen takes up 2/3 of the 9/16, leaving behind 1/3 of 9/16 = 3/16 of the starting KE as heat

If I didn't coast then 1/3 of the starting KE would turn into heat
Last edited by SageBrush on Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:41 am

You often characterize the other person that lives in the house you live in as your 'housemate.' And it was her car (and I presume her money), not yours. So it seemed reasonable to exclude you from the dataset. Have I brought you two closer together ?
We have a shared budget. Think of our household as a cooperate rather than a rooming house.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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