danrjones
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:35 pm

Interesting discussion this has gone into. I can provide a real life example, unique to me, of this and then you all can make of it what you wish.

I often drive from my place in the desert of CA to AZ rim country. A large portion of the route is on I-40. NO EV under $50k can do it currently without multiple charging stops. ABRP has a model 3 LR requiring charging stops in Needles, Kingman and then Flagstaff in order to go the complete route of 534 miles, and that is starting with 100% charge. Charging adds an hour.

I think what some of you might forget is that large portions of the country are not flat, and that can impact your range, and perhaps speed varies as well.

Now what is IDEAL for this 534 mile trip? My ideal EV would match the ICE trip, where I always stop half way in Kingman for lunch, bathroom and gas. I probably don't have to get gas right there, but I always do, since I stop anyway and only want to stop once. So in this real life example I need one stop in a 534 mile trip. With an ICE it takes 8 hrs plus that middle break. That's how I really do it and have always done it. YMMV.

As I stated, no EV currently can match that trip plan in a reasonable price range. As far as I know, only the model S can do it all right now and that's stretching it, arriving at 5% and requiring OVER an hour charge in Kingman. According to ABRP the only ones in the near future that can comfortably do it are the Tri Motor Cybertruck. Maybe Rivian and Lucid once EA gets their I-40 charges done. Certainly no EV in the 30-40k range. This case is particular to me but it is real.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

GRA
Posts: 12881
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:02 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:58 am
OrientExpress wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:56 pm
I’m glad to hear
You hear what you want to hear.
I was only saying that your statements are are at best distorted spin and FUD.

As usual

How are real-world issues and concerns distorted spin or FUD? We know that for YOUR driving habits and destinations a BEV and its charging infrastructure is acceptable. Those of us with different habits and destinations don't find them so yet, much as we wish that wasn't the case. You've been given some real-world examples demonstrating this. The IEVS review makes the same points:
Is a PHEV the better EV for long-distance travel?

This is a touchy subject, with pure battery-electric-vehicle (BEV) proponents turning up their noses at anything that burns even the slightest bit of petroleum. But there are also those that feel that using the proper tool for the job is the better approach.

PHEV advocates contend that at this point in time, BEVs are an excellent choice for urban and inter-urban travel and as a daily driver. BEVs shine when it comes to low speed travel and are extremely efficient in stop & go traffic. They are the perfect replacement for an ICE daily driver, and study after study has shown that 85-95% of all vehicles are driven primarily in this environment.

But many other studies and owners’ reported experiences have shown that long-distance travel is the BEVs Achilles heel. More and more BEVs are available today that boast EPA and other governmental range results of 300 or more miles, while actually only delivering at least a third less real-world range.

The current BEV mileage champs like Tesla boast 300+ miles of range on the majority of their models, and have one of the better recharging infrastructures today, but owners are surprised and disappointed when they find that real-world range at real-world highway speeds of 70-80 mph only deliver 150-200 miles of that advertised range. Add to that the necessity to recharge more times that adds a significant time penalty to a trip that in an ICE can accomplish on one tank of gas. Combine the hurry up and wait time lost in charging along with the relative scarcity of reliable high-speed charging in areas other than interstates and urban areas, that adds a significant time and enjoyment penalty to driving a pure BEV on a long trip. Many BEV owners are willing to take a step back in time efficiency when it comes to long-distance travel perhaps because of the novelty of BEV travel, but the mainstream long-distance driver finds their time more valuable than trying to show off.

A PHEV on the other hand takes the best of both the ICE and BEV world and lets the vehicle work with the tools that are most efficient. It’s a BEV when starting from an urban area, a gas/electric vehicle on the majority of the high-speed highway section, and back to being a BEV once the vehicle has arrived at its destination. And because it does not have a huge battery to recharge, 110v L1 charging is actually useful.

A PHEV isn’t afraid to get off the beaten path either, as the range of a PHEV is much greater than any BEV and gasoline is available in even the most out-of-the-way backroad. The RAV4 prime can easily accomplish a 650-700-mile trip without refueling or recharging despite that one’s bladder may not be as accommodating.

So yes, a PHEV may be a better choice today over a BEV if long-distance travel is a significant portion of the anticipated driving.
Is IEVS also engaging in distorted spin and FUD by publishing this?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
Posts: 4375
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:46 pm

GRA wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:02 pm
Is IEVS also engaging in distorted spin and FUD by publishing this?
Same author.

Yet I agree with his point. BEVs are not yet for everyone, and may never be. Very remote areas are unlikely to be covered by DCQC stations, the cost is just too high. Range of 1,200 miles isn't likely. Much less to match the crazy neighbor's pickup with a transcontinental range.
So something else, with low and low tech infrastructure cost, is needed. Short term gasoline, longer term perhaps biofuels or synfuels.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1610
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:07 pm

That’s what I’m thinking. ICEs already run on a variety of synthetic, organic, and petroleum based motor fuels. So if the ICE will still be with us for years to come, it seems logical to make them as inoffensive as possible.

Btw, just ran across this in the Tesla Model Y FB forum.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/TeslaM ... 541901643/

It’s a timely endorsement for our conversation.
Last edited by OrientExpress on Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Current EV
2021 Toyota RAV4 Prime XSE PHEV
Supersonic Red
Delivery January 29 2021

Prior LEAF:
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018
Return March 12 2021

GRA
Posts: 12881
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:46 pm

WetEV wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:46 pm
GRA wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:02 pm
Is IEVS also engaging in distorted spin and FUD by publishing this?
Same author.
I know. That wasn't my question.

WetEV wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:46 pm
Yet I agree with his point. BEVs are not yet for everyone, and may never be. Very remote areas are unlikely to be covered by DCQC stations, the cost is just too high. Range of 1,200 miles isn't likely. Much less to match the crazy neighbor's pickup with a transcontinental range.
So something else, with low and low tech infrastructure cost, is needed. Short term gasoline, longer term perhaps biofuels or synfuels.
[Removed statement I misattributed to WetEV rather than SageBrush]

Re your last point , while the infrastructure costs are still somewhat high, FCEVs provide the same capability as ICEs now (given the infrastructure, which thanks to their longer real-world range can be less dense and likely more reliable than the necessary QC network), and PHFCEVs provide a full ZEV replacement for PHEVs. Barring some major scientific breakthrough, biofuels are unlikely to be able to meet demand beyond critical aviation requirements, as we all have to eat too.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 16921
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:12 pm

If you agree with his point, then why did you describe it as distorted spin and FUD?
You guys are getting tangled up in your quoting. It was Sagebrush who said that, in his usual tactful manner.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GRA
Posts: 12881
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:12 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:12 pm
If you agree with his point, then why did you describe it as distorted spin and FUD?
You guys are getting tangled up in your quoting. It was Sagebrush who said that, in his usual tactful manner.

So it was. My apologies to WetEV for attributing that to him.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6251
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:52 pm

It is amusing that I am the only one here who has owned a PHEV, let along owned one and praised it repeatedly in this forum.
I have also said that my objection is not to the design but to the fleet results, which in my opinion argues against PHEV subsidy. And face it folks, without subsidy PHEV sales would dry up as fast as GRA could say "I drive a 20 mpg ICE."

As for @orient and his usual BS, I decided to correct his FUD that EVs must stop every ~ 150 miles for 30 - 45 minutes. Just because it is true for some EVs does not give him license to concoct a BS narrative
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1610
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:08 pm

Not must stop, but usually stop every 150-200 miles. The newer Tesla community members are not happy that it seems to be status quo for Tesla’s model Y.

It’s nothing to be ashamed about, back in the 1960’s ICE vehicles had the same range too.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/TeslaM ... 541901643/

Image
Current EV
2021 Toyota RAV4 Prime XSE PHEV
Supersonic Red
Delivery January 29 2021

Prior LEAF:
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018
Return March 12 2021

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6251
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:35 pm

Ahh ... FB, the land of morons.

He sits twiddling his thumbs for and hour to charge to 100% SoC, so he can drive 85 - 90 mph
Why am I not surprised that FB is @orient's go to reference for EV information
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Return to “Other Electric Cars & Plug-In Hybrids”