GCC: Toyota premieres Toyota-brand battery electric vehicles ahead of 2020 China launch

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/04/20190416-toyottachina.html

Toyota premiered its C-HR and IZOA battery electric vehicles (BEVs) as part of its activities on the opening day of Auto Shanghai 2019. The C-HR and IZOA will be the first battery-electric vehicles (BEVs) to launch in China under the Toyota brand. Sales on the new models are slated to start from 2020.

Toyota’s other booth exhibits at the show include a variety of electrified vehicles, such as the debut of hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) variants for the RAV4 and the Alphard/Vellfire in China, as well as the Corolla and Levin plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) series that were launched in March 2019. . . .

Beginning with the China debut of the electrified C-HR and IZOA vehicle models, Toyota plans to roll out more than ten BEV models globally during the first half of the 2020s, and has set a sales target of more than 5.5 million electrified vehicles globally by 2030. . . .

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"electrified" is the same language used by VW to muddy the waters. They include hybrid, hybrid plug-in, and BEV in the count.

Toyota has a problem (aside from their dislike of EVs, but maybe related to it): they don't have a good battery, or even good battery chemistry, to work with - they will have to start almost from scratch to build a long range EV battery. They have mainly been using strictly regulated NiMH batteries in their very successful hybrids, and unremarkable small lithium packs in their PHEVs and the Prius Eco. IOW, they have no experience with building what they will need to build. The RAV-4 EV used a Tesla drivetrain, including the battery, IIRC, and they haven't built another real EV for market, AFAIK...

SageBrush said:

"electrified" is the same language used by VW to muddy the waters. They include hybrid, hybrid plug-in, and BEV in the count.

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As they are all EVs to one extent or another I'm okay with "electrified" - that's what adjectives and prefixes are for. As to China, I imagine they'll be using Chinese batteries, at least until they're comfortable with the solid-state batteries that Toyota's been developing for years.

GRA said:

SageBrush said:

"electrified" is the same language used by VW to muddy the waters. They include hybrid, hybrid plug-in, and BEV in the count.

Click to expand...

As they are all EVs to one extent or another I'm okay with "electrified" - that's what adjectives and prefixes are for. As to China, I imagine they'll be using Chinese batteries, at least until they're comfortable with the solid-state batteries that Toyota's been developing for years.

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You might as well count your Subaru then too. After all, it *does" have a battery and an alternator.

You can be the President of the 'No Car Left Behind' club

"Electrified" is new enough to be confusing to some, but it's also accurate enough that I don't see why it shouldn't be used. What would be better? "Electric-ish"? "Partial EV"? "Near-EV"?

A couple years ago Toyota said they would be producing cars with solid state batteries by 2020. Not a word since. It's amazing how these companies put these things out there just to try and stay relevant, and they never get called on it. Tesla is the only company that is profitably mass producing electric cars, yet they are extremely polarizing as a company. They are too optimistic in their marketing announcements, but clearly they aren't the only car company guilty of this. At least they follow through.

LeftieBiker said:

"Electrified" .... it's also accurate enough that I don't see why it shouldn't be used.

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It includes up to a 100x inaccuracy in battery kWh using current car models.

So when Toyota says they will build 5M "electrified" cars, are they talking about 5M kWh of battery or 500M kWh of battery, or something, somewhere, in between ?

Perhaps the meaning of 100x range is not clear to you. As an example:
Just like you, we live on a budget. It is in the range of $1,000 - $100,000 a month.

I try not to get too upset by car manufacturers acting like con men, because too many of them are doing it. If you can't invent a better term, Sagebrush, then try to stay clam when you read "electrified."

SageBrush said:

GRA said:

SageBrush said:

"electrified" is the same language used by VW to muddy the waters. They include hybrid, hybrid plug-in, and BEV in the count.

Click to expand...

As they are all EVs to one extent or another I'm okay with "electrified" - that's what adjectives and prefixes are for. As to China, I imagine they'll be using Chinese batteries, at least until they're comfortable with the solid-state batteries that Toyota's been developing for years.

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You might as well count your Subaru then too. After all, it *does" have a battery and an alternator.

You can be the President of the 'No Car Left Behind' club

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I'm not the only one who describes modern ICEs as "electrified" vehicles, but for purposes of the discussion here, "electrified vehicles" means (Maglevs aside) any land, sea or air vehicle propelled partly or solely by electric motor(s). Where and how the electricity is generated and whether or not it's used as produced or is stored first (and where) is for the prefixes. Any other definition of an EV leaves out way too many vehicles that are unquestionably "electric".

LeftieBiker said:

I try not to get too upset by car manufacturers acting like con men, because too many of them are doing it. If you can't invent a better term, Sagebrush, then try to stay clam when you read "electrified."

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Already invented:

hybrid -- HEV
plug-in hybrid -- PHEV
BEV

These are very different groups and my objection is to treating them as one.

webb14leafs said:

A couple years ago Toyota said they would be producing cars with solid state batteries by 2020. Not a word since. It's amazing how these companies put these things out there just to try and stay relevant, and they never get called on it. Tesla is the only company that is profitably mass producing electric cars, yet they are extremely polarizing as a company. They are too optimistic in their marketing announcements, but clearly they aren't the only car company guilty of this. At least they follow through.

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You must have missed a lot of press releases and articles then, like this one from January:

Toyota and Panasonic to jointly make electric-car batteries, explore solid-state tech (Updated)

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https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ectric-car-batteries-explore-solid-state-tech

Among the other things mentioned was this:

Toyota and Panasonic will also reportedly work together to develop next-generation solid-state lithium-ion batteries, which are expected to provide increased range with less weight and cost for electric cars. They could also be less flammable to improve safety.

Toyota has been working to find other chemistries that would be useful for electric cars. It announced in 2017 that it plans to put solid-state battery tech into a production vehicle in the early part of the next decade. . . .

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Then how about "*EV"? Just kidding - and now maybe "electrified" sounds better to you...?

SageBrush said:

LeftieBiker said:

"Electrified" .... it's also accurate enough that I don't see why it shouldn't be used.

Click to expand...

It includes up to a 100x inaccuracy in battery kWh using current car models.

So when Toyota says they will build 5M "electrified" cars, are they talking about 5M kWh of battery or 500M kWh of battery, or something, somewhere, in between ?

Perhaps the meaning of 100x range is not clear to you. As an example:
Just like you, we live on a budget. It is in the range of $1,000 - $100,000 a month.

Click to expand...

Who says that on-board battery storage with off-board generation is the measure of "electrified"? That would mean that Trolley buses, subway and other electric trains that get their power on demand via overhead wires or third rails (or inductive coils in the roadway, if we ever do that on a large scale) aren't "electrified", and that's nonsensical.

SageBrush said:

LeftieBiker said:

I try not to get too upset by car manufacturers acting like con men, because too many of them are doing it. If you can't invent a better term, Sagebrush, then try to stay clam when you read "electrified."

Click to expand...

Already invented:

hybrid -- HEV
plug-in hybrid -- PHEV
BEV

These are very different groups and my objection is to treating them as one.

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You've just shown how to treat them differently by adding an appropriate prefix, going from the general to the specific, so what's the problem? These are all EVs, and when you need to be more specific, you add a prefix, just as you've done. Oh, and let's not forget FCEV, and when we need to be even more specific, we can add more prefixes or adjectives and speak of "mild" hybrids (just seen 'MHEV' used for the first time), "range-extended", PHFCEVs and so on, but they all remain EVs.

GRA said:

webb14leafs said:

A couple years ago Toyota said they would be producing cars with solid state batteries by 2020. Not a word since. It's amazing how these companies put these things out there just to try and stay relevant, and they never get called on it. Tesla is the only company that is profitably mass producing electric cars, yet they are extremely polarizing as a company. They are too optimistic in their marketing announcements, but clearly they aren't the only car company guilty of this. At least they follow through.

Click to expand...

You must have missed a lot of press releases and articles then, like this one from January:

Toyota and Panasonic to jointly make electric-car batteries, explore solid-state tech (Updated)

Click to expand...

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ectric-car-batteries-explore-solid-state-tech

Among the other things mentioned was this:

Toyota and Panasonic will also reportedly work together to develop next-generation solid-state lithium-ion batteries, which are expected to provide increased range with less weight and cost for electric cars. They could also be less flammable to improve safety.

Toyota has been working to find other chemistries that would be useful for electric cars. It announced in 2017 that it plans to put solid-state battery tech into a production vehicle in the early part of the next decade. . . .

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Not to be snarky, but no; I did not miss this article and it only proves my point. They have gone from a 2017 statement that they would have cars on the road with solid state batteries in 2020 or 2021. Two years later they have an "agreement" to start producing conventional Lithium Ion batteries in 2020, and will start thinking about solid state batteries at some unspecified point in the future.

I'm not knocking Toyota. This has nothing to do with them. I'm knocking the Tesla haters who would skewer Elon Musk for saying something like this. He was late on Model 3 deliveries. He is late on producing a $35K model, and may never get there. We may have to be okay with him being off on his base price by (GASP!!) 6%-10%, even though this price competes very well with other EVs on the market that are sold at a loss. Like most CEOs he will overpromise on delivery dates. Hell, that's part of the job. He's the only one in the industry, though, who is criticised for not hitting those dates. Others are apparently allowed to flat-out lie.

webb14leafs said:

GRA said:

webb14leafs said:

A couple years ago Toyota said they would be producing cars with solid state batteries by 2020. Not a word since. It's amazing how these companies put these things out there just to try and stay relevant, and they never get called on it. Tesla is the only company that is profitably mass producing electric cars, yet they are extremely polarizing as a company. They are too optimistic in their marketing announcements, but clearly they aren't the only car company guilty of this. At least they follow through.

Click to expand...

You must have missed a lot of press releases and articles then, like this one from January:

Toyota and Panasonic to jointly make electric-car batteries, explore solid-state tech (Updated)

Click to expand...

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ectric-car-batteries-explore-solid-state-tech

Among the other things mentioned was this:

Toyota and Panasonic will also reportedly work together to develop next-generation solid-state lithium-ion batteries, which are expected to provide increased range with less weight and cost for electric cars. They could also be less flammable to improve safety.

Toyota has been working to find other chemistries that would be useful for electric cars. It announced in 2017 that it plans to put solid-state battery tech into a production vehicle in the early part of the next decade. . . .

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Not to be snarky, but no; I did not miss this article and it only proves my point. They have gone from a 2017 statement that they would have cars on the road with solid state batteries in 2020 or 2021. Two years later they have an "agreement" to start producing conventional Lithium Ion batteries in 2020, and will start thinking about solid state batteries at some unspecified point in the future.

<snip Tesla-related matter>

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Did you miss this IEVS article, from last May?

Toyota Says Solid-State Batteries Still More Than Decade Away

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https://insideevs.com/news/337905/toyota-says-solid-state-batteries-still-more-than-decade-away/

"Q: We were led to believe that Toyota will introduce solid-state batteries in the early 2020 period. Many observers do not believe that is possible and that a more realistic timeframe is 2030.

Abe: Yes, we did say we are starting this initiative and want to make solid-state batteries available in the early part of the 2020s decade. But in fact, that won’t be on a mass-production basis. We will begin with small-lot and trial production. We would never experiment on customers. Like you said, 2030 might be a more realistic timeframe."

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Shinzuo Abe is Toyota's Powertrain manager, and the above isn't "not a word since". I could link to various other articles in the interim, but you see my point.

GRA said:

webb14leafs said:

GRA said:

You must have missed a lot of press releases and articles then, like this one from January: https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ectric-car-batteries-explore-solid-state-tech

Among the other things mentioned was this:

Click to expand...

Not to be snarky, but no; I did not miss this article and it only proves my point. They have gone from a 2017 statement that they would have cars on the road with solid state batteries in 2020 or 2021. Two years later they have an "agreement" to start producing conventional Lithium Ion batteries in 2020, and will start thinking about solid state batteries at some unspecified point in the future.

<snip Tesla-related matter>

Click to expand...

Did you miss this IEVS article, from last May?

Toyota Says Solid-State Batteries Still More Than Decade Away

Click to expand...

https://insideevs.com/news/337905/toyota-says-solid-state-batteries-still-more-than-decade-away/

"Q: We were led to believe that Toyota will introduce solid-state batteries in the early 2020 period. Many observers do not believe that is possible and that a more realistic timeframe is 2030.

Abe: Yes, we did say we are starting this initiative and want to make solid-state batteries available in the early part of the 2020s decade. But in fact, that won’t be on a mass-production basis. We will begin with small-lot and trial production. We would never experiment on customers. Like you said, 2030 might be a more realistic timeframe."

Click to expand...

Shinzuo Abe is Toyota's Powertrain manager, and the above isn't "not a word since". I could link to various other articles in the interim, but you see my point.

Click to expand...

Yes, I did miss that. Yes I see your point, and you're proving mine. I missed the article about Toyota executives retracting their earlier claims on delivering a technology. Would I have missed it if it had been Mush? Of course not. David Einhorn would've treated it like a sign of the end times.