SageBrush
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Re: GCC: Toyota premieres Toyota-brand battery electric vehicles ahead of 2020 China launch

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:29 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I try not to get too upset by car manufacturers acting like con men, because too many of them are doing it. If you can't invent a better term, Sagebrush, then try to stay clam when you read "electrified."
Already invented:

hybrid -- HEV
plug-in hybrid -- PHEV
BEV

These are very different groups and my objection is to treating them as one.
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GRA
Posts: 12073
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: GCC: Toyota premieres Toyota-brand battery electric vehicles ahead of 2020 China launch

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:34 pm

webb14leafs wrote:A couple years ago Toyota said they would be producing cars with solid state batteries by 2020. Not a word since. It's amazing how these companies put these things out there just to try and stay relevant, and they never get called on it. Tesla is the only company that is profitably mass producing electric cars, yet they are extremely polarizing as a company. They are too optimistic in their marketing announcements, but clearly they aren't the only car company guilty of this. At least they follow through.
You must have missed a lot of press releases and articles then, like this one from January:
Toyota and Panasonic to jointly make electric-car batteries, explore solid-state tech (Updated)
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... state-tech

Among the other things mentioned was this:
Toyota and Panasonic will also reportedly work together to develop next-generation solid-state lithium-ion batteries, which are expected to provide increased range with less weight and cost for electric cars. They could also be less flammable to improve safety.

Toyota has been working to find other chemistries that would be useful for electric cars. It announced in 2017 that it plans to put solid-state battery tech into a production vehicle in the early part of the next decade. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: GCC: Toyota premieres Toyota-brand battery electric vehicles ahead of 2020 China launch

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:35 pm

Then how about "*EV"? ;) Just kidding - and now maybe "electrified" sounds better to you...?
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GRA
Posts: 12073
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: GCC: Toyota premieres Toyota-brand battery electric vehicles ahead of 2020 China launch

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:37 pm

SageBrush wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:"Electrified" .... it's also accurate enough that I don't see why it shouldn't be used.
It includes up to a 100x inaccuracy in battery kWh using current car models.

So when Toyota says they will build 5M "electrified" cars, are they talking about 5M kWh of battery or 500M kWh of battery, or something, somewhere, in between ?

Perhaps the meaning of 100x range is not clear to you. As an example:
Just like you, we live on a budget. It is in the range of $1,000 - $100,000 a month.
Who says that on-board battery storage with off-board generation is the measure of "electrified"? That would mean that Trolley buses, subway and other electric trains that get their power on demand via overhead wires or third rails (or inductive coils in the roadway, if we ever do that on a large scale) aren't "electrified", and that's nonsensical.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 12073
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: GCC: Toyota premieres Toyota-brand battery electric vehicles ahead of 2020 China launch

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:44 pm

SageBrush wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:I try not to get too upset by car manufacturers acting like con men, because too many of them are doing it. If you can't invent a better term, Sagebrush, then try to stay clam when you read "electrified."
Already invented:

hybrid -- HEV
plug-in hybrid -- PHEV
BEV

These are very different groups and my objection is to treating them as one.
You've just shown how to treat them differently by adding an appropriate prefix, going from the general to the specific, so what's the problem? These are all EVs, and when you need to be more specific, you add a prefix, just as you've done. Oh, and let's not forget FCEV, and when we need to be even more specific, we can add more prefixes or adjectives and speak of "mild" hybrids (just seen 'MHEV' used for the first time), "range-extended", PHFCEVs and so on, but they all remain EVs.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

webb14leafs
Posts: 287
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Delivery Date: 27 Mar 2017

Re: GCC: Toyota premieres Toyota-brand battery electric vehicles ahead of 2020 China launch

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:27 am

GRA wrote:
webb14leafs wrote:A couple years ago Toyota said they would be producing cars with solid state batteries by 2020. Not a word since. It's amazing how these companies put these things out there just to try and stay relevant, and they never get called on it. Tesla is the only company that is profitably mass producing electric cars, yet they are extremely polarizing as a company. They are too optimistic in their marketing announcements, but clearly they aren't the only car company guilty of this. At least they follow through.
You must have missed a lot of press releases and articles then, like this one from January:
Toyota and Panasonic to jointly make electric-car batteries, explore solid-state tech (Updated)
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... state-tech

Among the other things mentioned was this:
Toyota and Panasonic will also reportedly work together to develop next-generation solid-state lithium-ion batteries, which are expected to provide increased range with less weight and cost for electric cars. They could also be less flammable to improve safety.

Toyota has been working to find other chemistries that would be useful for electric cars. It announced in 2017 that it plans to put solid-state battery tech into a production vehicle in the early part of the next decade. . . .
Not to be snarky, but no; I did not miss this article and it only proves my point. They have gone from a 2017 statement that they would have cars on the road with solid state batteries in 2020 or 2021. Two years later they have an "agreement" to start producing conventional Lithium Ion batteries in 2020, and will start thinking about solid state batteries at some unspecified point in the future.

I'm not knocking Toyota. This has nothing to do with them. I'm knocking the Tesla haters who would skewer Elon Musk for saying something like this. He was late on Model 3 deliveries. He is late on producing a $35K model, and may never get there. We may have to be okay with him being off on his base price by (GASP!!) 6%-10%, even though this price competes very well with other EVs on the market that are sold at a loss. Like most CEOs he will overpromise on delivery dates. Hell, that's part of the job. He's the only one in the industry, though, who is criticised for not hitting those dates. Others are apparently allowed to flat-out lie.

GRA
Posts: 12073
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: GCC: Toyota premieres Toyota-brand battery electric vehicles ahead of 2020 China launch

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:07 pm

webb14leafs wrote:
GRA wrote:
webb14leafs wrote:A couple years ago Toyota said they would be producing cars with solid state batteries by 2020. Not a word since. It's amazing how these companies put these things out there just to try and stay relevant, and they never get called on it. Tesla is the only company that is profitably mass producing electric cars, yet they are extremely polarizing as a company. They are too optimistic in their marketing announcements, but clearly they aren't the only car company guilty of this. At least they follow through.
You must have missed a lot of press releases and articles then, like this one from January:
Toyota and Panasonic to jointly make electric-car batteries, explore solid-state tech (Updated)
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... state-tech

Among the other things mentioned was this:
Toyota and Panasonic will also reportedly work together to develop next-generation solid-state lithium-ion batteries, which are expected to provide increased range with less weight and cost for electric cars. They could also be less flammable to improve safety.

Toyota has been working to find other chemistries that would be useful for electric cars. It announced in 2017 that it plans to put solid-state battery tech into a production vehicle in the early part of the next decade. . . .
Not to be snarky, but no; I did not miss this article and it only proves my point. They have gone from a 2017 statement that they would have cars on the road with solid state batteries in 2020 or 2021. Two years later they have an "agreement" to start producing conventional Lithium Ion batteries in 2020, and will start thinking about solid state batteries at some unspecified point in the future.

<snip Tesla-related matter>
Did you miss this IEVS article, from last May?
Toyota Says Solid-State Batteries Still More Than Decade Away
https://insideevs.com/news/337905/toyot ... cade-away/
"Q: We were led to believe that Toyota will introduce solid-state batteries in the early 2020 period. Many observers do not believe that is possible and that a more realistic timeframe is 2030.

Abe: Yes, we did say we are starting this initiative and want to make solid-state batteries available in the early part of the 2020s decade. But in fact, that won’t be on a mass-production basis. We will begin with small-lot and trial production. We would never experiment on customers. Like you said, 2030 might be a more realistic timeframe."
Shinzuo Abe is Toyota's Powertrain manager, and the above isn't "not a word since". I could link to various other articles in the interim, but you see my point.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

webb14leafs
Posts: 287
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:43 am
Delivery Date: 27 Mar 2017

Re: GCC: Toyota premieres Toyota-brand battery electric vehicles ahead of 2020 China launch

Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:22 am

GRA wrote:
webb14leafs wrote:
GRA wrote: You must have missed a lot of press releases and articles then, like this one from January: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... state-tech

Among the other things mentioned was this:
Not to be snarky, but no; I did not miss this article and it only proves my point. They have gone from a 2017 statement that they would have cars on the road with solid state batteries in 2020 or 2021. Two years later they have an "agreement" to start producing conventional Lithium Ion batteries in 2020, and will start thinking about solid state batteries at some unspecified point in the future.

<snip Tesla-related matter>
Did you miss this IEVS article, from last May?
Toyota Says Solid-State Batteries Still More Than Decade Away
https://insideevs.com/news/337905/toyot ... cade-away/
"Q: We were led to believe that Toyota will introduce solid-state batteries in the early 2020 period. Many observers do not believe that is possible and that a more realistic timeframe is 2030.

Abe: Yes, we did say we are starting this initiative and want to make solid-state batteries available in the early part of the 2020s decade. But in fact, that won’t be on a mass-production basis. We will begin with small-lot and trial production. We would never experiment on customers. Like you said, 2030 might be a more realistic timeframe."
Shinzuo Abe is Toyota's Powertrain manager, and the above isn't "not a word since". I could link to various other articles in the interim, but you see my point.
Yes, I did miss that. Yes I see your point, and you're proving mine. I missed the article about Toyota executives retracting their earlier claims on delivering a technology. Would I have missed it if it had been Mush? Of course not. David Einhorn would've treated it like a sign of the end times.

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