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Will Bolt be first to V2G/V2H?

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:50 pm
by Marktm
Is anyone familiar with the Bolt's PLC (power line communication) protocols? Is there a CCS "standard" that defines these protocols consistently for charging stations? It is quite interesting that the more advanced solar systems designers (e.g. Pika Energy) appear to be using PLC protocols to control the charging/discharging of the Panasonic Li technology batteries that will be offered as part of their residential energy systems. Does this promote a relatively easy integration of EVs with residential solar systems if they can both "speak" a common PLC language?

Re: Will Bolt be first to V2G/V2H?

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:15 am
by cwerdna
Not sure what you mean by this.

V2H has been available on Leaf for years, just not in the US. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 49#p504949.

On one of the Leaf Facebook groups. Someone in Japan lost 4 capacity bars within their equivalent of the 5 year/60K mile (probably 100K km or 96K km) capacity warranty. I was surprised given their climate. They mentioned they also were using a V2H system, likely the Nichicon unit I pointed to. I wish I saved a pointer to the thread.

A quick Google search turned up http://www.evs28.org/event_file/event_f ... -Japan.pdf which says
Since the release of the “LEAF to Home” V2H system in 2012, approximately 2,400 V2H systems have been installed in Japan (as of December 2014), and the user base has been growing at a monthly rate. Since Japan is the only market where V2H systems are widely distributed...

Re: Will Bolt be first to V2G/V2H?

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:57 am
by Marktm
cwerdna wrote:Not sure what you mean by this.
To clarify - the Bolt has adopted the CCS charging "standard" that uses power line communications (PLC) and has battery storage capacity that, for many (myself included) only a portion would be used on a daily (or maybe even weekly basis). Both Pika Energy and Solaredge use a "DC bus" technology between the PV "optimizers", inverter, and the Li Battery and that appear to use PLC based controls. I'm wondering if this common DC bus with PLC protocols will make it easier to integrate (as an example) the Bolt as battery backup to augment or replace the (relatively expensive) LG or Panasonic batteries?

The subject line is miss-leading in that V2H is actually available (Setec Power) to be used in the U.S. today with CHAdeMO protocols (and maybe CCS/PLC?). As cwerdna points out, Nissan has had that available in Japan for some time. I was actually referring to the "hybrid" type inverters that are grid tied and can provide backup power if the grid goes down - that are the offerings of Pika and Solaredge. So my question is (admittedly out of ignorance!) is it possible that these inverter systems could provide both V2H and V2G capabilites if the EV battery can be "tapped into" the DC bus/PLC protocols for charge/discharge?

Is anyone knowledgeable about these DC bus designs (and use of PLC protocols) that can offer opinions on the possibilities?

Re: Will Bolt be first to V2G/V2H?

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:44 am
by edatoakrun
Marktm wrote:
cwerdna wrote:Not sure what you mean by this.
...V2H is actually available (Setec Power) to be used in the U.S. today with CHAdeMO protocols (and maybe CCS/PLC?)...
While there are many examples of CHAdeMO ports being used to discharge energy from BEVs, FCVs and PHEVs, using CCS or TSLA ports to access a vehicles energy source (AFAIK) has never even been demonstrated.

Not qualified to explain why, but have been told variously both that it is a design issue, and/or that the manufacturers using those ports simply do not want to pursue the application.

Stupid behavior, IMO, whichever explanation is correct.

Re: Will Bolt be first to V2G/V2H?

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:03 pm
by spirilis
edatoakrun wrote:
Marktm wrote:
cwerdna wrote:Not sure what you mean by this.
...V2H is actually available (Setec Power) to be used in the U.S. today with CHAdeMO protocols (and maybe CCS/PLC?)...
While there are many examples of CHAdeMO ports being used to discharge energy from BEVs, FCVs and PHEVs, using CCS or TSLA ports to access a vehicles energy source (AFAIK) has never even been demonstrated.

Not qualified to explain why, but have been told variously both that it is a design issue, and/or that the manufacturers using those ports simply do not want to pursue the application.

Stupid behavior, IMO, whichever explanation is correct.
My understanding from researching this a bit is SAE CCS uses Homelink GreenPHY (specifically, the lower-speed control channel portion) sent over the J1772 connector's AC leads (which doesn't normally have any AC live on it, iirc, so I guess it's PLC on a wire pair that has no power?) with Ethernet, but I've not found details on what the protocol looks like. I do know Qualcomm seems to be the only ones building chips to support that. Couldn't find the individual chips for sale.

The SAE CCS Type 1 connector, used in the USA, is available (made by Phoenix Contact) but retails over $1000 ( http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDet ... key1628122 ). CHAdeMO is much further along in terms of being able to buy hardware and connectors to build alternative systems (like V2H).

I think it would be nice to build a cottage industry around 3rd party SAE CCS hardware, cheaper pump handles + cables along with easily purchased GreenPHY adapters. If anything, the option to install your own lower-power fast charger at home (e.g. 19kW) would be enticing along with the option to have a CCS "generator" for powering heavy stuff in the field. The latter being a solid use-case for future BEV work trucks/semis and the like.

Then again, over at the Focus Electric forum, someone got ambitious and installed a CHAdeMO port for his car (pre-2017, so it had no fast charge capability anyhow) by tapping into a high voltage junction box atop the motor... and using Arduino to monitor the OBD-II CAN messages for controlling the charge session. http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/vi ... it=chademo

Re: Will Bolt be first to V2G/V2H?

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:12 pm
by smkettner
I do not see V2G/V2H ever happening. To much of a warranty issue. Lots of usage and no miles on the odometer.

Re: Will Bolt be first to V2G/V2H?

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:05 pm
by JeremyW
spirilis wrote:My understanding from researching this a bit is SAE CCS uses Homelink GreenPHY (specifically, the lower-speed control channel portion) sent over the J1772 connector's AC leads (which doesn't normally have any AC live on it, iirc, so I guess it's PLC on a wire pair that has no power?) with Ethernet, but I've not found details on what the protocol looks like. I do know Qualcomm seems to be the only ones building chips to support that. Couldn't find the individual chips for sale.
SAE CCS uses Homelink GreenPHY on the pilot pin, not the AC pins. STMicro is another manufacturer that makes GreenPHY compatible chips.

You can buy the SAE standards, although they can be quite complicated to follow: J2931/4 goes over PLC (based off of DIN SPEC 70121), J2847/2 goes over requirements, and J2836/2 goes over use cases.

Nice find on Phoenix Contact. I believe that they've had a euro "type 2" one on the market for a bit longer. I'm a huge fan of that design.
Most CCS type 1 cables today are from REMA.

Re: Will Bolt be first to V2G/V2H?

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:20 pm
by cwerdna
smkettner wrote:I do not see V2G/V2H ever happening. To much of a warranty issue. Lots of usage and no miles on the odometer.
FWIW, at the SF celebrity chef EVent for the '18 Leaf last night, I did see an number posters/displays touting V2H and picturing a Leaf attached to a box similar to the one at http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/produ ... ew124.html. I didn't bother taking pictures of it.

Nissan also touted it during the live-streamed launch from Japan.

At the Cupertino EVent last month they had a V2H box attached to the '18 Leaf powering some stuff at their tent. I don't think this is the first time they've done that at Drive Electric Week EVents.

At the Sunnyvale EVent last month at Nissan's research office, in one of the side conversations after the presentation ended, someone did ask the marketing guy about it. I recall him essentially saying they're working on partnering with a company/companies in the US to provide a solution for consumers. Sounded like there was debate as to the distribution channel (e.g. electric utility or someone else).

Re: Will Bolt be first to V2G/V2H?

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:15 pm
by Marktm
JeremyW wrote: SAE CCS uses Homelink GreenPHY on the pilot pin, not the AC pins. STMicro is another manufacturer that makes GreenPHY compatible chips.

You can buy the SAE standards, although they can be quite complicated to follow: J2931/4 goes over PLC (based off of DIN SPEC 70121), J2847/2 goes over requirements, and J2836/2 goes over use cases.
It appears that a couple of the solar inverter companies are using PLC over the nominal 400 VDC bus to communicate between the solar panel DC/DC converters (string converters), the lithium storage battery and the inverter itself to charge/discharge the 400 VDC battery according to several modes of operation (keep it full for reserve, maximize grid supply based on economics, etc.). Would it be possible to "communicate" between the SAE CCS protocols and (e.g.) Pika's REbus to use any CCS compliant EV as the storage battery? It appears the DC voltages ranges of the string converters/inverters are in the correct range for most EV batteries. I'd guess this could only happen if the EV firmware allows bi-directional energy flow?

Re: Will Bolt be first to V2G/V2H?

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:59 am
by Marktm
Interesting that this link showed up on the associated Bolt forum. The "example" section is a V2G session. Search the Bolt forum for "bidirectional" for some good information.

http://tesla.o.auroraobjects.eu/Design_ ... V3_1_1.pdf