cwerdna
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Re: 2018 launch Audi E-tron BESUV. Official thread?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:52 pm

One thing that surprised me when looking thru the back of a recent issue of a Car & Driver was that this e-tron has a 9.6 kW OBC.

Seems confirmed by https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-e-tron/charging and https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-e-tron if you click on View technical specifications.

This would be the first non-Tesla powered consumer EV/PHEV in the US market that has above a 32 amp OBC. Prior to this, all those w/above 32 amp OBCs were Tesla powered (e.g. Tesla-branded vehicles or those w/Tesla OBCs like gen 2 Rav4 EV and Mercedes B-Class ED).

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GRA
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Re: 2018 launch Audi E-tron BESUV. Official thread?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:20 pm

^^^ Faster L2 is inevitable as packs get bigger, with Ford offering 48A charging on the Mach-E.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: 2018 launch Audi E-tron BESUV. Official thread?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:36 pm

For all those who prioritize aero over cargo space. Do we want to split the Sportback off into its own topic?

IEVS:
Audi e-tron Sportback Lights Up At LA Auto Show
https://insideevs.com/news/383228/audi- ... auto-show/

At launch, Audi is preparing a special launch edition they call "Edition One":

From the press release:

  • "The Audi e-tron Sportback . . . will debut on the European market in spring 2020. In Germany, the e-tron Sportback will be available in two output variants, with the base price starting at EUR 71,350. To celebrate the launch, Audi will offer the limited-edition model “edition one” in the plasma blue color. Based on the S line exterior, it also includes the virtual exterior mirrors, attachments finished in an aluminum-look, exclusive 21-inch wheels, orange brake calipers, and the panoramic glass sunroof. The illuminated front door sill trims project the model name “edition one” as a logo onto the ground. The interior offers a choice between the interior design selection, supplemented with customized contour seats with exclusive Monaco gray seat covers in Valcona leather, and the S line interior with sport seats also in Valcona leather. The equipment also includes the Bang & Olufsen Premium Sound System with front 3D sound, the assist package Tour and matrix LED headlights with front and rear dynamic turn signals as well as dynamic light scenarios. . . ."
More battery capacity available

The e-tron Sportback also has the same battery options as its larger brother. The e-tron 50 has a 71 kWh pack and the e-tron 55 has a 95 kWh battery. The North American market will only get the larger battery, following suit with the e-tron SUV. However, we learned that Audi is opening up 3% more capacity for the Sportback than they currently do on the SUV. On the 95 kWh e-tron, the usable capacity is currently 83.6 kWh because of the 12% buffer. On the e-tron Sportback, Audi has opened up 86.5 kWh and reduced the buffer to only 9%.

I pressed Audi of North America's e-tron product manager, Matthew Mostafaei, about whether or not the e-tron SUV will get the same usable capacity boost and he was non-committal. However, the fact that he wouldn't say it wasn't going to, leads me to believe Audi will soon open up more capacity for the e-tron SUV, they just aren't ready to announce that at the moment.

The US won't get some of the best e-tron Sportback goodies

The e-tron Sportback will be the first car in the world to use "digital matrix LED headlights". The system projects light with extreme accuracy and lights up the lane the vehicle is using from a distance of 20 meters to 80 meters. I had the opportunity to drive in the e-tron Sportback and use this new system, and it really worked well. I was impressed at how well it illuminated the lane we were using but always stopped short of the vehicle in front of us. . . .

From Audi's press release:

  • "Not only does the digital light system deliver cornering, city, and highway lighting as versions of the low-beam light with exceptional precision, it also supplements the high-beam light by masking out other road users with even greater accuracy. Above all, however, it offers innovative functions such as lane light and orientation light. On freeways, the lane light creates a carpet of light that illuminates the driver’s own lane brightly and adjusts dynamically when he or she changes lane. In this way, it improves the driver’s awareness of the relevant lane and contributes to improved road safety. In addition, the orientation light uses darkened areas masked out from the light beam to predictively show the vehicle’s position in the lane, thereby supporting—especially on narrow roads or in highway construction zones—the safe lane centering assist. The marking light function is also used in conjunction with the optional night vision assist. The light automatically draws attention to any pedestrians it detects, thereby reducing the danger of overlooking pedestrians in the immediate vicinity of the lane."
In addition to the digital-led headlights, the e-tron Sportback will have side-view cameras instead of mirrors everywhere the vehicle is available, except for North America. . . .

Driving range & charging

Audi hasn't announced the EPA range rating of the e-tron Sportback, but with the additional 2.9 kWh for the 95 kWh battery pack and the improved aerodynamics of the Sportback (Drag coefficient of .25), we expect the e-tron Sportback to have about 20 more miles of range than the e-tron SUV. That should equate to an EPA range rating of somewhere between 220 to 225 miles.

The e-tron Sportback has the same charging capabilities as the e-tron SUV. It can charge at 40-amps on a level 2, 240-volt EVSE, and the 95-kWh battery e-tron 50 models can accept up to 150 kW on a DC fast charger. The smaller 71 kWh battery e-tron 55 models can accept up to 120 kW while DC fast charging. Because the battery on the e-tron 55's is 24 kW smaller, they take about the same time to recharge, even though they can only accept 120 kW. Both the e-tron 50, and the e-tron 55 will recharge from 5% to 80% in about half an hour. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Astros
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Re: 2018 launch Audi E-tron BESUV. Official thread?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:59 am

GRA wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:36 pm
For all those who prioritize aero over cargo space. Do we want to split the Sportback off into its own topic?
The two cars are similar enough, I think one topic covers both.

I am interested to see how much cargo space and rear headroom the Sportback sacrifices, and how much range that buys it. It’s still probably too expensive for me, but I’m guessing they will be relatively affordable used in 2-3 years when they are coming off lease.
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DougWantsALeaf
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Re: 2018 launch Audi E-tron BESUV. Official thread?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:59 pm

I wager that 20 miles of additional range (knocking on the door of 230) will provide a significant boost to interest. A lot of threads suggest 200 miles as the psychological barrier... I think its around 230 miles. You want in the worst of weather to come back after a day or two of driving will still over 100 miles on the GOM. If you start with 200...in bad weather its 140-150. If you drive 30 miles a day, on day 2, you are going to recharge. Add 20 miles, and now you are to every 3rd day before charging. It feels more normal and less stress inducing.

The Leaf is at the edge. The Kona and Niro, and SR+ just above.
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GRA
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Re: 2018 launch Audi E-tron BESUV. Official thread?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:19 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:59 pm
I wager that 20 miles of additional range (knocking on the door of 230) will provide a significant boost to interest. A lot of threads suggest 200 miles as the psychological barrier... I think its around 230 miles. You want in the worst of weather to come back after a day or two of driving will still over 100 miles on the GOM. If you start with 200...in bad weather its 140-150. If you drive 30 miles a day, on day 2, you are going to recharge. Add 20 miles, and now you are to every 3rd day before charging. It feels more normal and less stress inducing.

The Leaf is at the edge. The Kona and Niro, and SR+ just above.

For the general public, the value for money barrier is at least 300 and probably 350+ miles while being affordable, which is why virtually every ICE will go at least that far with no worries. See https://insideevs.com/news/355552/28000 ... ile-range/

The cheapest car sold in the U.S. in 2019 is a $13,220 base MSRP Chevy Spark LT with a 5-Spd, rated 38 mpg HWY with a 9.0 gallon tank, for an official range of 342 miles, or say 300 miles with a 30 mile reserve and some extra for hills, HVAC or what have you. As it can get you to anywhere you want to go on a (paved) road trip that requires one or more stops to replenish energy faster (despite its anemic engine) than a $79,990 base MSRP Tesla S100D with a nominal 373 mile range, albeit in a lot less comfort and style, the price/capability gap between what the general public wants/expects and what BEVs can currently deliver remains quite large, albeit narrowing. I suspect it won't be until 300+ mile BEVs have base MSRPs <=$30k that the mass of the general public will really start to take an interest, and getting the base MSRP down to $25K and then $20k will be needed to convert essentially everyone.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: 2018 launch Audi E-tron BESUV. Official thread?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:21 pm

Last edited by WetEV on Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
WetEV
#49
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GRA
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Re: 2018 launch Audi E-tron BESUV. Official thread?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:50 pm

WetEV wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:21 pm
GRA wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:19 pm
For the general public, the value for money barrier is at least 300 and probably 350+ miles while being affordable, which is why virtually every ICE will go at least that far with no worries.
For an ICE, adding range is almost free. So ICEs will likely have more range than needed, as the marginal return of value doesn't need to be large to repay the marginal cost of a larger gas tank.

More range than needed as determined by whom? I think how much range the typical customer wants (me too FTM, even though my use case isn't typical) is encapsulated in the article I linked above:
Some people such as Fred Lambert of Electrek argue that you don't need a 400+ mile range EV. I made some strong points in favor of longer range EVs in my previous article "Let The Tesla Bulls Rage On And Chuckle At The Bears." I would like to add two points.

First: the argument is made that what is needed is simply more charging infrastructure and faster charge times. If this is really true, then the question has to be asked, where are all the 200-mile range ICE vehicles? There is certainly plenty of infrastructure, and fueling such a vehicle would only take about 1 minute. Clearly greater range is very desirable to most people, even when infrastructure and fast fill times are there.

Second: when I go on a road trip (if I ever do again) I want to be the one that decides how often I take a potty break, NOT THE CAR.

In order for EVs to be taken seriously and widely adopted, they have to be a step forward, not a step backward, this includes overall range. A 400-mile range EV is what is needed in order for the masses to really want to adopt EVs.

A BEV's ability to charge at home or work and never need to visit a QC station for local use is typically cited by BEV advocates as a convenience advantage compared to driving to a gas station, and it is (for those who have that option). By the same token, the driver being able to decide when/where to use a bathroom, eat or sleep rather than the car forcing those decisions on them is just as much of a convenience/flexibility advantage on road trips. It certainly is for me, as my bladder has a 4-6 hour and my stomach a 6-8 hour range, both of which are much longer than an 80% QC'd BEV can provide in most cases, especially ones with 100% range of 200-250 miles, and that's before any allowances.

WetEV wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:21 pm
Most of the time, when comparing a BEV and an ICE with the same range, the BEV will be more convenient, as long as it has the range to be recharged only at home. For road trips, the ICE will be more convenient as fueling is faster than charging, and as there are many more gas stations than DCQCs.

See above, although we seem to be in agreement, but as long as many households only have and/or can only afford 1 car, that car will need to be able to perform all tasks, and even multi-car families sometimes need to be able to take long trips in different directions at the same time. Ideally, everyone would have (or have the ability to use a MaaS) smallish-battery BEV for routine use, and then rent long-range vehicles for trips, rather than paying for and hauling around a lot of battery that rarely gets used. Until most people are willing to adopt that pattern of use and they can be guaranteed that the kind of car they want will be available when they want it, do-everything cars will be the norm. Which is of course why I favor PHEVs (and even better if they can work out the cost issues, PHFCEVs) for such cars until affordable (sub-$30k base) long-range BEVs arrive that don't pay a huge weight/space penalty for hauling around all that rarely-used battery capacity.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

DougWantsALeaf
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Re: 2018 launch Audi E-tron BESUV. Official thread?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:14 pm

I am just reflecting what I see on the different forums combined with my experience in the 13 Leaf.

While I agree 230 miles is not a “no compromises experience”, it is a low compromise experience for regional driving and a nearly no compromises experience for suburban/city use. For cross country, it’s “doable” in summer I would say the 150-180 mile cars was questionable for cross country.

For us personally, our Leaf already outpaces our 2007 Kia Sedona, as we only get 200 miles per tank (plus a 2 gallon in the red reserve) in the beast for local drives (11-12 mpg).

I have done regional drives up to 500 miles in a day with our Plus, but once you leave city L3 infrastructure, it still requires more planning.
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WetEV
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Re: 2018 launch Audi E-tron BESUV. Official thread?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:43 pm

Last edited by WetEV on Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WetEV
#49
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