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Re: Official Tesla Model S thread

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:45 am
by Valdemar
Depends what refurb means. I would think it means it contains used cells.

Re: Official Tesla Model S thread

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:22 am
by DaveinOlyWA
Valdemar wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:45 am
Depends what refurb means. I would think it means it contains used cells.
I think it means new parts used to repair a defective pack. Are you implying these packs will come what? 90% SOH or even less?

Any other guesses?

Re: Official Tesla Model S thread

Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:18 am
by Valdemar
I doubt all those packs that Tesla replaced under warranty went to landfill. A refurb pack can be assembled using good cells harvested from those batteries and factory tested. Service centers don't repair batteries. Unclear on the SOH.

Re: Official Tesla Model S thread

Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:16 am
by jlsoaz
eyedrop wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:08 pm
Does anyone have a good guess on when the used 2013 base model S will drop below $30k used? With the Model 3 at 35k brand new and all the hype, I'm hoping to get a lower base model S in the next year or two. Probably an S 60 or something. Family and wife gives green light as soon as we find a $29,000 Tesla with a clean title...

It's interesting to me, but not entirely surprising, how it's more than two years later and it's still hard to find a used Tesla (of any model type) with a clean title under $30k in the US market. Throw in the requirement that it have less than 70k-100k on the odometer and it's even more difficult. IMO, one of the factors here is that going back to 2017 or further, there were few or no competing widely-available choices among really good long-range BEVS that might compete now in the used marketplace. Yes, there are presently some models that compete in one area or another, though they tend to have caveats. Still, going into 2020, it's not a very robust competitive used marketplace for long-range used BEVS in good condition under $30k that are really effective yet in helping to reduce demand for the used Teslas. Perhaps at some point in the next few quarters, or in another year or two. As well, other factors contribute to this price situation (in my view) such as the expiration of warranties or (I'm guessing) the passing of price guarantee dates.

As well, maybe there is some factor there with Teslas that is not as much there with other vehicles, as to the very high costs of certain repairs and where the line is drawn as to declaring the vehicles total wrecks? I don't know enough about it, but from what little I've been able to gather, if at some point in the life of the vehicle the manufacturer either makes it prohibitively expensive to fix the vehicle, or if it is in the nature of the vehicle that it has to be declared a total loss, then maybe that creates a bit more of a gap than we might expect in the under $30k used area? I don't know.

Re: Official Tesla Model S thread

Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:41 pm
by Tonyt
jlsoaz wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:16 am
eyedrop wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:08 pm
Does anyone have a good guess on when the used 2013 base model S will drop below $30k used? With the Model 3 at 35k brand new and all the hype, I'm hoping to get a lower base model S in the next year or two. Probably an S 60 or something. Family and wife gives green light as soon as we find a $29,000 Tesla with a clean title...

It's interesting to me, but not entirely surprising, how it's more than two years later and it's still hard to find a used Tesla (of any model type) with a clean title under $30k in the US market. Throw in the requirement that it have less than 70k-100k on the odometer and it's even more difficult. IMO, one of the factors here is that going back to 2017 or further, there were few or no competing widely-available choices among really good long-range BEVS that might compete now in the used marketplace. Yes, there are presently some models that compete in one area or another, though they tend to have caveats. Still, going into 2020, it's not a very robust competitive used marketplace for long-range used BEVS in good condition under $30k that are really effective yet in helping to reduce demand for the used Teslas. Perhaps at some point in the next few quarters, or in another year or two. As well, other factors contribute to this price situation (in my view) such as the expiration of warranties or (I'm guessing) the passing of price guarantee dates.

As well, maybe there is some factor there with Teslas that is not as much there with other vehicles, as to the very high costs of certain repairs and where the line is drawn as to declaring the vehicles total wrecks? I don't know enough about it, but from what little I've been able to gather, if at some point in the life of the vehicle the manufacturer either makes it prohibitively expensive to fix the vehicle, or if it is in the nature of the vehicle that it has to be declared a total loss, then maybe that creates a bit more of a gap than we might expect in the under $30k used area? I don't know.
It should be easier to find nice clean ones under 30k now. A year ago we got our first 2 100k cars for 29k. And this year we found a clean 30k under 100k miles and a signature. However my area has lot more choices than other areas. A little drive may be necessary and some waiting and good luck.

Re: Official Tesla Model S thread

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:09 pm
by jlsoaz
Tonyt wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:41 pm
It should be easier to find nice clean ones under 30k now. A year ago we got our first 2 100k cars for 29k. And this year we found a clean 30k under 100k miles and a signature. However my area has lot more choices than other areas. A little drive may be necessary and some waiting and good luck.
Thanks, in the end, I did manage to save my own powder for 2020, and maybe will wait even until 2021 (especially considering most of the automakers are waiting that long to compete more strongly in the new vehicle area). I do still aggressively check used Tesla prices (along with used Hyundai and Kia (though few to be found in my area)). In the end, with Tesla, I may go against my better judgment and go into debt and buy a $25k vehicle in seemingly decent condition, but one thought that has helped me keep my cool is remembering an experience I had of buying a European entry-level luxury vehicle that had a reputation for being expensive to fix. The reputation bore out.... in the end, many luxury vehicles are not entirely cheap to own, over the years.

I see today that GM is offering extraordinary discounts on the Bolt to start the year, putting the off-the-lot price somewhere in the $30k range (this is for a new 259 EPA range liquid-cooled vehicle). Maybe they should just have allowed their engineers and designers to make a really great vehicle with the same powertrain in a more desirable segment, and for the same price, rather than trying to pitch a $40k vehicle too close to the econocar segment.

Re: Official Tesla Model S thread

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:23 pm
by DaveinOlyWA
jlsoaz wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:09 pm
Tonyt wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:41 pm
It should be easier to find nice clean ones under 30k now. A year ago we got our first 2 100k cars for 29k. And this year we found a clean 30k under 100k miles and a signature. However my area has lot more choices than other areas. A little drive may be necessary and some waiting and good luck.
Thanks, in the end, I did manage to save my own powder for 2020, and maybe will wait even until 2021 (especially considering most of the automakers are waiting that long to compete more strongly in the new vehicle area). I do still aggressively check used Tesla prices (along with used Hyundai and Kia (though few to be found in my area)). In the end, with Tesla, I may go against my better judgment and go into debt and buy a $25k vehicle in seemingly decent condition, but one thought that has helped me keep my cool is remembering an experience I had of buying a European entry-level luxury vehicle that had a reputation for being expensive to fix. The reputation bore out.... in the end, many luxury vehicles are not entirely cheap to own, over the years.

I see today that GM is offering extraordinary discounts on the Bolt to start the year, putting the off-the-lot price somewhere in the $30k range (this is for a new 259 EPA range liquid-cooled vehicle). Maybe they should just have allowed their engineers and designers to make a really great vehicle with the same powertrain in a more desirable segment, and for the same price, rather than trying to pitch a $40k vehicle too close to the econocar segment.
Most areas, you can get a 2019 Bolt in the mid 20's after incentives.

Re: Official Tesla Model S thread

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:51 am
by jlsoaz
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:23 pm
[...] Most areas, you can get a 2019 Bolt in the mid 20's after incentives.
I checked and you're right. In my area, the lowest offers are theoretically in the low-20s, but I spoke to a dealer and it quickly became apparent they were going to be unrelenting about including more than $2k worth of dealer add-ons, not to mention doc fees, taxes, registration. I was apparently not getting out the door under $30k (and that's not counting interest, and whatever extra warranty or other joy they might try to stick in there at the last minute). Heck, to make this relevant to Tesla, while I think there are some disadvantages to Tesla not going through conventional dealerships, I also think the positive side of Tesla not doing so has some substantial, quantifiable advantage for the buyer and for Tesla.

Re: Official Tesla Model S thread

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:33 am
by DaveinOlyWA
jlsoaz wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:51 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:23 pm
[...] Most areas, you can get a 2019 Bolt in the mid 20's after incentives.
I checked and you're right. In my area, the lowest offers are theoretically in the low-20s, but I spoke to a dealer and it quickly became apparent they were going to be unrelenting about including more than $2k worth of dealer add-ons, not to mention doc fees, taxes, registration. I was apparently not getting out the door under $30k (and that's not counting interest, and whatever extra warranty or other joy they might try to stick in there at the last minute). Heck, to make this relevant to Tesla, while I think there are some disadvantages to Tesla not going through conventional dealerships, I also think the positive side of Tesla not doing so has some substantial, quantifiable advantage for the buyer and for Tesla.
That is on the dealer end. Simply find another dealer. Make sure to provide the proper feedback on their rating page.

LEAFs are going for the same price; E Plus in mid 20's. 40 kwh in low 20's. You can do even better if you have the right dealer. From a lady in Portland who admits to being a poor negotiator.

"HI! New member here. Got my new 2019 Leaf S in November at Alan Webb. Just want to take a minute to brag about the deal. I like a good transportation value. This is the absolute base model with NO extras. 40kWh "tank". All in sticker price was $34,005 (car price, dealer fees, tax, registration). After dealer discount and every rebate and credit ever, my TOTAL out the door cost was $16,196."

Re: Official Tesla Model S thread

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:51 pm
by jlsoaz
Thanks, the Leaf e-Plus is close to being a non-starter for me because of the heat/battery degradation and rapidgate lingering question marks, but I'll take a look locally, out of curiosity now that you've mentioned it.

I can get the Bolt down to about $31k out the door at a dealer around here that doesn't pad the numbers quite as much (though I think I was looking at one that was a bit nicer, but it was nearly the cheapest one they seemed to have). This is for a vehicle that I consider to be vastly inferior to some others, based on the reviews I've watched. I am considering buying, but I'm hoping I will have the stamina and hold out and get something much better used, once they drop below $30k or even below $20, out the door. Doesn't have to be a Tesla. Could be, for example, a Kona EV.
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:33 am
jlsoaz wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:51 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:23 pm
[...] Most areas, you can get a 2019 Bolt in the mid 20's after incentives.
I checked and you're right. In my area, the lowest offers are theoretically in the low-20s, but I spoke to a dealer and it quickly became apparent they were going to be unrelenting about including more than $2k worth of dealer add-ons, not to mention doc fees, taxes, registration. I was apparently not getting out the door under $30k (and that's not counting interest, and whatever extra warranty or other joy they might try to stick in there at the last minute). Heck, to make this relevant to Tesla, while I think there are some disadvantages to Tesla not going through conventional dealerships, I also think the positive side of Tesla not doing so has some substantial, quantifiable advantage for the buyer and for Tesla.
That is on the dealer end. Simply find another dealer. Make sure to provide the proper feedback on their rating page.

LEAFs are going for the same price; E Plus in mid 20's. 40 kwh in low 20's. You can do even better if you have the right dealer. From a lady in Portland who admits to being a poor negotiator.

"HI! New member here. Got my new 2019 Leaf S in November at Alan Webb. Just want to take a minute to brag about the deal. I like a good transportation value. This is the absolute base model with NO extras. 40kWh "tank". All in sticker price was $34,005 (car price, dealer fees, tax, registration). After dealer discount and every rebate and credit ever, my TOTAL out the door cost was $16,196."