coleafrado

Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:50 pm

mux wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:41 am
The platinum problem in PEMFCs isn't just centered around the amount necessary for each PEMFC stack, it's really a cumulative problem tied into a particularly nasty speculative market:
- Each PEMFC has its counterpart in platinum used for electrolyzers
- PGMs in fuel cells are inherently a lot harder to recoup, as it's much more sparsely distributed and in the form of nanoparticles that tend to erode much more easily
- Platinum is a largely speculative market with centralized, tightly controlled supply that is hard to expand

We've seen in the early '00s that even the vague promise of future FC cars sent the platinum price up to ridiculous levels. That in turn actually made the platinum so expensive that fuel cell stacks became intrinsically uncompetitive in the long run, it was that bad - it went to over $2000/oz, which is about the total materials cost of a 100kWh battery - back then. It's gone down substantially now, to the point that you can theoretically make a ~100kW PEM fuel cell for less than the cost of a 100kWh battery, but imagine what the markets would do if some large automaker would decide to go 100% with fuel cells for the future.

Diesel cat converter platinum can be recouped 98%+, PEMFCs have much lower recovery rates, I think the best rates are still well below 50%. This is not completely intrinsic (i.e. this can be improved with better technology), but until we're at parity with other catalytic uses of platinum, we're going to need to supply the rest of the platinum with mined, new platinum. That's really what the speculation is all about. There's still a large technology gap enabling good platinum recovery AND low platinum usage at the same time. Keep in mind - Diesel cat converters may have the same total amount of platinum in them, but the total platinum demand from the catalytic converter industry is just 2% of their production capacity - the part they can't recover. That makes it a completely different ball game, for now at least.

TL;DR: the platinum discussion is more complex than raw materials amount, it's a quite unique combination of materials usage, recovery and speculative precious metal markets.
Neat. I guess Toyota is getting close to the minimum mass limit where there's so little platinum that physical erosion (not chemical poisoning) ends up being a large factor.

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:23 pm

Autoweek:
Toyota Mirai: A Long Drive in Our Long-Term Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car
We travel 1,037 miles on the Hydrogen Highway in Toyota's Mirai fuel cell sedan.

https://www.autoweek.com/drives/a329761 ... -car-test/


LA to Tahoe and back. I know, Edmunds did it with a Mirai and a Model X a few years ago, and that one was more useful IMO, but take this FWIW.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:13 am

IEVS:
Next-Gen Toyota Mirai Production Version Debuts In December
https://www.motor1.com/news/448759/next ... rai-debut/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:08 pm

GCR:
Racier-looking 2021 Toyota Mirai hydrogen fuel-cell car is ready for more infrastructure
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... astructure

. . .Mirai XLE versions have heated seats, dual-zone climate control, and power-folding side mirrors with puddle lamps. Limited models get an exclusive Hydro Blue color, with other choices in the rest of the lineup now including white, black, red, and Heavy Metal (assuming gray) hues. The Limited adds a panoramic moonroof with power sliding sunshade, a rear-window sunshade, and black or white perforated faux-leather seats with accent stitching. Bigger 20-inch wheels are an option only on the Limited, over the 19-inch wheels on other models.

On all Mirai models, a 12.3-inch touchscreen infotainment system will offer Android Auto and Apple CarPlay, and Amazon Alexa compatibility, and there’s a wireless charging tray for devices—although there’s no mention of leading-edge connectivity for wireless Apple CarPlay.

A new suite of active safety features is also included on the entire lineup. Toyota says the Mirai is one of just three models to include its new “Toyota Safety Sense 2.5+,” adding pedestrian and bicycle detection to its pre-collision system, and wrapping in emergency steering assist, full-speed adaptive cruise control, and lane-keep assist. Automatic high beams and a road-sign recognition system are included, too. . . .

Toyota’s release also still lacks overall specs of the five-seater, expected to be about 196 inches long by 75 inches wide, and riding on a 115-inch wheelbase. That’s much larger than the current car, although it’s lower than the current car, at about 54 inches high. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:47 pm

Some (generally very positive) first drive reviews of the Gen.2 Mirai, prices etc.:


GCR:
First drive review: 2021 Toyota Mirai goes faster and farther, but is that enough?
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... hat-enough


ABG:
2021 Toyota Mirai pricing and official range announced

It can go up to 402 miles and starts at about $50,000
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/16/202 ... ng-range/


IEVS:
2021 Toyota Mirai Test Drive Review: Is Hydrogen Right For you?
https://insideevs.com/reviews/460274/20 ... ve-review/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 12881
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:03 pm

GCR:
The best-driving sedan Toyota already makes is an electric car
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... ectric-car

The 2021 Toyota Mirai I drove a few weeks ago adds to the hydrogen conundrum of the past several years—that there can exist some truly great-driving vehicles available in a small region in only one state. Yes, California and its 44 or so hydrogen stations.

As the Mirai was heading away from Portland on a truck, in search of more high-pressure hydrogen that was perhaps hundreds of miles away, I attempted to digest the inspiring hydrogen-powered car and the best-driving sedan in Toyota’s lineup—framed against the infrastructure that almost isn’t.

My mind strayed to the conversation I had with chief engineer Yoshikazu Tanaka more than a year ago. Tanaka summed up the mission behind the whole project with: “Within the limitations of the refueling structure… how appealing of a car could we create. . .?”


IEVS:
Tesla Model Y Vs Toyota Mirai: Which Is Truly The 'Better' Car?
https://insideevs.com/features/489781/v ... d-to-head/


Pick your priorities to choose.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:25 am

GRA wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:03 pm

IEVS:
Tesla Model Y Vs Toyota Mirai: Which Is Truly The 'Better' Car?
https://insideevs.com/features/489781/v ... d-to-head/


Pick your priorities to choose.
Ha ha ha! That video was so full of snark and sarcasm that I'm surprised you didn't pick up on it. "Pick your priorities" indeed.
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
:: Model 3 LR (Turo) :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Model Y LR AWD (wife's) :: acquired 30 Dec '20
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:48 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:25 am
GRA wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:03 pm

IEVS:
Tesla Model Y Vs Toyota Mirai: Which Is Truly The 'Better' Car?
https://insideevs.com/features/489781/v ... d-to-head/


Pick your priorities to choose.
Ha ha ha! That video was so full of snark and sarcasm that I'm surprised you didn't pick up on it. "Pick your priorities" indeed.

I rarely watch videos, as doing so on my phone is tedious enough, never mind all the time-wasting irrelevancies. And then, many of them lack CC so are useless to me in any case. I prefer written synopses of the major points, and leave it to others whether they wish to sit through the rest.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:50 pm

ABG:
The 2021 Toyota Mirai is insanely cheap after tax rebates and $20,000 incentive

It effectively starts at $17,995. You even get 0% financing and free hydrogen
https://www.autoblog.com/2021/03/10/202 ... ncentives/

The 2021 Toyota Mirai is a stonking deal if you live in one of the few areas of this country with a hydrogen refueling station. Toyota prices the base XLE trim at $50,495, including the $995 destination charge, but what you’ll pay is nowhere near this price. CarsDirect recently discovered new incentives for the car that are enough to raise anybody’s eyebrows.

From now until the end of March, Toyota is offering a $20,000 incentive when taking advantage of Toyota financing. On its own, this brings the effective base price down to $30,495, or $46,995 for the Limited (yes, that trim level really is $16,500 more). But wait, there are government tax rebates to be taken into account here, too. The U.S. government will hand you an $8,000 federal tax credit, and the state of California (the only state you can buy the Mirai in) will shovel another $4,500 your way. Those two taken into account, you’re looking at an effective base price of $17,995. The Limited goes down to $34,495 after you collect those rebates, which is a wild deal versus the car’s $66,995 starting price, but its extras are hardly necessary and surprisingly few given the $16,500 premium. In other words, just stick with that $17,995 XLE.

This gets even harder to say no to when you remember that Toyota is offering every Mirai buyer a $15,000 fuel credit for three years and 21 days of free car rentals should you need to go further than the Mirai allows (357-mile range with the Limited trim and 402 miles with an XLE).

This is starting to get ridiculous, but CarsDirect also reports that Toyota is offering zero-interest financing for up to 72 months. . . .

This deal will supposedly expire at the end of March, and while it’s likely that Mirais will continue to be slow-sellers, we can’t say what the next few months of incentives will hold. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

mux
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:57 pm

Goodness me, are they trying to get rid of the last stock? That's a firesale! I don't live in the USA but would totally buy one at this price.

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