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knightmb said:
SageBrush said:
Proof is in the pudding
https://youtu.be/FgqCyy53C_g?t=240

For those people unsure about what they are seeing,
the pack reaches 751 volts at a SoC labelled "100%". An 800v pack has 192 cells in series

Very interesting and more technical video, thanks!

You are welcome
Although ... I was only pointing out that charging stops at a cell voltage of 3.911 V
Not that most people would care if they get competitive range at a competitive price. Which I mostly agree with, except I dislike deceptive advertising and I was annoyed by the uninformed, the silly media, and Hyundai touting 800v superiority based on the gamed charging curve. And it really is stupid to give up range for a fictitious higher charging speed.
 
I put a $100 deposit down now about 2-3 weeks ago.
Hyundai said via email:

"Congrats on reserving the all-new IONIQ 5! We received your deposit and a concierge agent will contact you within the next 3-5 days"

Guess what? No contact.
But then, my long ago deposit deposit for Tesla Cybertruck has been similar.



My wife prefers the Audi Q4 Etron, and it is suppose to start at 45k. No deposit for those yet.

So if you had to choose between Ionic 5 and Q4 Etron, which would you pick?
That's a weird choice if they both start at 45k. Luxury, but slower charging and lower range?

And before someone asks why Model Y isn't on my list, it is because currently there is no fed tax credit.
$52490 vs 45,000 becomes $52490 vs $37500, which isn't close. Now if they actually DO change the tax credit, and it bumps to 10k or 12k (?) for American made vehicles, I'll revisit that math.
 
danrjones said:
My wife prefers the Audi Q4 Etron, and it is suppose to start at 45k. No deposit for those yet.

So if you had to choose between Ionic 5 and Q4 Etron, which would you pick?
That's a weird choice if they both start at 45k. Luxury, but slower charging and lower range?

And before someone asks why Model Y isn't on my list, it is because currently there is no fed tax credit.
$52490 vs 45,000 becomes $52490 vs $37500, which isn't close. Now if they actually DO change the tax credit, and it bumps to 10k or 12k (?) for American made vehicles, I'll revisit that math.
I bolded your answer. You have written before that your wife is brand and image driven. Is Hyundai even an option in her eyes ?

$10k for American made, another $2.5k if unionized workforce.
I keep reading that the Repukes will kill the GREEN bill unless the Dems decide to invoke budget reconciliation. That would be a large investment of political capital they are not expected to make. For the moment my take is that either the green bill gets subsumed into the annual budget bill or it has little chance of passing.
 
SageBrush said:
danrjones said:
My wife prefers the Audi Q4 Etron, and it is suppose to start at 45k. No deposit for those yet.

So if you had to choose between Ionic 5 and Q4 Etron, which would you pick?
That's a weird choice if they both start at 45k. Luxury, but slower charging and lower range?

And before someone asks why Model Y isn't on my list, it is because currently there is no fed tax credit.
$52490 vs 45,000 becomes $52490 vs $37500, which isn't close. Now if they actually DO change the tax credit, and it bumps to 10k or 12k (?) for American made vehicles, I'll revisit that math.
I bolded your answer. You have written before that your wife is brand and image driven. Is Hyundai even an option in her eyes ?

$10k for American made, another $2.5k if unionized workforce.
I keep reading that the Repukes will kill the GREEN bill unless the Dems decide to invoke budget reconciliation. That would be a large investment of political capital they are not expected to make. For the moment my take is that either the green bill gets subsumed into the annual budget bill or it has little chance of passing.

I don't have warm fuzzies that anything EV related will get passed anytime soon. Which really hurts on the charging infrastructure side.
Mitch McConnell went on record saying he would never allow a vote for any democratic nominated Supreme court justice, ever, if the GOP controls the Senate. And if I had to guess, I'd say next election the GOP wins back the house but looses one, maybe two senate seats.

It is an interesting thing that in the US the minority manages to control, or fully obstruct, the majority. And before someone says that prevents tyranny, you can have minority tyranny just as easily as majority. And we are lucky to turn out what, half the eligible voters?
 
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
I guess Jeff Dahn was also duping people when he said that for maximum longevity you should limit your SoC range to 30-70%.
No duping by Dahn, but try to understand that he was not recommending that SoC range or making any assertion what degradation a different SoC range would cause.


Oh really?
One of those things is not charging to a full charge too often. Repeated full charges can negatively impact li-ion battery cells, which is why Tesla recommends to only daily charge to 90% capacity and to charge to 100% only when needed for long trips.

In the past, CEO Elon Musk even recommended 80% daily charging:

@cairnz 80% to 30%

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) March 25, 2014. . . .

Both are easily manageable in Tesla vehicles since they all offer over 200 miles of range on a full charge and therefore, they can cover most daily commutes with even just a fraction of a full charge.

But if someone wants to really push the optimisation to its limit, Dahn suggests going even lower.

A Model X owner on TMC aims to keep his all-electric SUV for up to 20 years and he decided to reach to Dahn for advice on daily charging to optimize the battery pack longevity. The researcher responded:

“I would recommend charging to 70% normally. When you need a long trip, charge to 100%.”

https://electrek.co/2017/09/01/tesla-battery-expert-recommends-daily-battery-pack-charging/

Then there's this article, titled "Are you killing your lithium batteries?" which references Dahn again, and refers to his lecture:
. . . Jeff Dahn states that charging to a level below 100% can have a large impact by reducing the rate of degradation of the battery.

Most people don’t use their entire electric vehicle battery pack capacity every day, and rarely have the need to charge all the way to 100%. By charging a lithium-ion battery to 80%, the lifetime of the battery can be as much as doubled, according to Grin Technologies. This Canadian company performed such tests while developing an adjustable charger designed for electric bicycles and other light electric vehicle batteries.

It is important to note that the most damage from high charge levels comes from when the battery rests at such high levels for long periods of time. I’ve heard of many people who freak out after learning about the effect of high charge levels, with some swearing off 100% charging forever.

But 100% charging isn’t a big deal in small doses. If you are planning a long trip and will be heading out shortly after you finish charging, a 100% charge will have very little impact on your battery’s lifespan. However, if you will be leaving your battery unused for many days or weeks, a charge level of between 30-60% is much healthier for the batteries over the long-term.

Does this apply to all lithium batteries?

Theoretically yes, though LiFePO4 batteries aren’t quite as affected by high charge levels as the rest of the lithium-ion lineup. But generally speaking, these rules apply to all lithium-ion batteries from your electric car to your cell phone and even your electric tooth brush. Professor Dahn even jokes that you’d be well advised to keep your laptop in the fridge when you’re not using it, if you really want to get extreme about increasing your battery life.

For the most part, these simple methods can greatly increase the lifespan of your battery, and are easy to implement. Avoid supercharging your electric car unless necessary. . . .

https://electrek.co/2018/05/04/are-you-killing-your-lithium-batteries/



SageBrush said:
I routinely charge my Tesla to 70% in the summer and 80% in the winter. I pre-charge to 100% before trips. I don't know what "maximum" longevity would be if I followed an ideal regime but my car battery has degraded ~ 2% in 3 years. An enforced buffer that prevented me from using the entire battery capacity on trips would not be my first choice. Or one of my first thousand choices. By the way, Dahn might also recommend charging at 1.5 kW for maximum battery longevity. I'm sure he would be right, but no one bothered to ask him what the difference in battery longevity is between that ideal and a regime of routine charging at 5 -- 10 kW and occasional charging to 75% SoC at a Supercharger.

Regarding Musk, he was not disagreeing with Dahn, he was answering a different question related to an optimization between battery longevity and customer convenience and utility. If you think that Dahn would recommend a 30% buffer for every battery so that capacity is *never* used, you are even more clueless than you let on.


Which is not what I said. I said that for the average customer, providing a buffer so that they don't need to even know all the dirty details but can just charge and discharge the battery the same way they fill and empty the tank on their ICE would be simpler, especially if it maintains the initial useful range of the car for as long as possible. Which is a case of an "optimization between battery longevity and customer convenience and utility". Obviously, those who are more into the nitty-gritty (and who are willing to replace batteries or cars more often) won't be happy with that approach.


SageBrush said:
And so once again you completely miss the point in the pursuit of debating hypotheticals. A very slight improvement over the hundreds of pages you labor on to rationalize your choices.


What hypotheticals? Any car I own I expect to be capable of any trip I bought it for throughout its life, which I expect to be a minimum of fifteen and preferably 20 years (just as the guy who asked Dahn that question was interested in). It will often sit for weeks at a time parked, and will then need to be charged for road trips and have a maximum guaranteed range, and will repeatedly have to be QC'd during them, often in high temps. All of these are known factors in accelerated degradation.

BTW, I've asked twice for you to provide a source for your claim that the Ionic 5 achieves its high sustained charge rate by having a large buffer., and you've ducked it. I've provided one which says that's not the case. Here's a third chance for you to provide one. Silence speaks volumes.
 
The Tesla Model S with 100 kWh pack has been charted at a V3 Supercharger:
Ideal Supercharger hopping at ~ 13 EPA miles a minute. Almost 1200 miles in a day that starts with a full charge and spends an hour charging during the day's driving.

Not bad for a 400v drivetrain :lol:

img-tesla-model-s-plaid-2021-dcfc-power-20210622.png
 
SageBrush said:
The Tesla Model S with 100 kWh pack has been charted at a V3 Supercharger:
Ideal Supercharger hopping at ~ 13 EPA miles a minute. Almost 1200 miles in a day that starts with a full charge and spends an hour charging during the day's driving.

Not bad for a 400v drivetrain :lol:


Not bad. Just think what it could do with an 800V pack, not to mention the wire savings: https://insideevs.com/news/515641/tesla-models-plaid-charging-analysis/

The bottom half, where they compare its charging rate with among others, the Ionic 5. Tesla avg. rate, 130kW; Ionic 5, 170kW. The ionic mainatains a higher charging power, except for a couple of short dips, from 35% up, and is almost double the Plaid at 80%, about 17kW to 65. It appears the Ionic also replaces more miles of range/minute despite its draggier shape, although we don't have direct comparison info for it and the Plaid. The M3 LR AWD is below the Ionic in WLTP, and the M3 is above the Plaid in EPA Hwy. And the Ionic does this with a battery about 3/4 of the capacity of the Plaid. Just think what it could do with a 100kWh pack, or Tesla with an 800-1,000V pack. Or, since Tesla has apparently bowed out, Lucid.
 
BTW, how did Tesla improve the new Model S charge speed, especially since:
. . . Tesla has confirmed that it has reduced the energy capacity of the new battery pack in the new Model S. . . .

For the new Model S, Tesla has developed a brand new powertrain under its Palladium program, as Electrek reported last year.

During the launch event last week, Tesla did talk about its new electric motor, but it didn’t get into any detail about the new battery pack.

Here we go:

We are slowly learning a few more details about it as new information is released.

For example, Tesla confirmed in the new owners manual that the battery pack received a voltage bump to 450 volts.

As for the energy capacity, we had a pretty good idea that Tesla actually decreased the energy capacity from the previous ~104 kWh based on the new EPA rating.

https://electrek.co/2021/06/17/tesla-reduced-energy-capacity-battery-pack-new-model-s/


Despite opinions to the contrary, it appears that P=EI (or P=I^2R, or W=VA in the appropriate units) applies to Tesla just as it does to everyone else. :roll:
 
Well... it sucks but not too much of a shock, the Ioniq 5 has been delayed for the US.

Given Hyundai hasn't reached out to me with any details or question about my reservation kind of expected this.

https://electrek.co/2021/09/15/hyundai-delays-ioniq-5-electric-car-launch-us/
 
Ioniq 5 Production Actually Hasn't Been Delayed, Hyundai Says
The brand still expects to start cranking the EV out in October, but availability at "a majority of dealerships" won't happen until after December 21.
https://jalopnik.com/ioniq-5-production-actually-hasnt-been-delayed-hyundai-1847680190
 
cwerdna said:
Ioniq 5 Production Actually Hasn't Been Delayed, Hyundai Says
The brand still expects to start cranking the EV out in October, but availability at "a majority of dealerships" won't happen until after December 21.
https://jalopnik.com/ioniq-5-production-actually-hasnt-been-delayed-hyundai-1847680190

Well Hyundai changed their website from "Fall" to "Winter"... so it sure sounds to me like the rollout has slowed. But maybe a few people will get lucky.
 
This is only my opinion but personally, I believe Hyundai is like Suburu and Honda, in that their EV offerings are only compliance cars and not much more, they don't really care about anything other than meeting compliance. I know back when I was looking for a Honda PHEV no one locally would sell me one as my state wasn't a CARB state, I'd of had to drive to NY to pick one up at the time. Then came Kia with their Soul EV, again only CARB state sales, nothing in MN. When my daughter was looking for a Suburu Crosstrek PHEV we were again told by our local dealer, NOT for MN! When she finally decided on a Hyundai Ionic PHEV we ended up having to drive to CO as again NOT for MN!
CARB state state people may believe EVs and PHEVs are widely available, I can tell you this is STILL NOT the case, in a non-CARB state our only real choices are Leaf(which is how I ended up with a Leaf) and Tesla, nothing else really and things are basically the same way today. Well except for the Toyota RAV4 Prime PHEV that I have on order as like Nissan and Telsa they seem to be the only ones willing to sell out of the limited number of CARB states. Granted we were put on a 2-year waiting list for the Prime and could have picked one up right away if we had been willing to travel or maybe have one shipped to MN but personally I kind of feel if a mfg. doesn't want to sell a vehicle in our state, I'll look elsewhere. My daughter felt differently, hence our 14h drive to and then from Greely CO to pick up her new Ionic. It's kind of funny to me that even people in CO are now and even CA can't get the Ionic 5, wow that's really a limited market.
 
This is only my opinion but personally, I believe Hyundai is like Suburu and Honda, in that their EV offerings are only compliance cars and not much more, they don't really care about anything other than meeting compliance.

You really, really need to add Toyota to that list. Toyota hates EVs, even though they are perfectly willing to provide PHEVs. They have been fighting a rear guard action against EVs for many years, using hydrogen as their rallying cry. Maybe they really were just waiting for a really, really good battery chemistry, but I'll believe that when I see them cranking out solid state BEVs like Priuses...
 
LeftieBiker said:
This is only my opinion but personally, I believe Hyundai is like Suburu and Honda, in that their EV offerings are only compliance cars and not much more, they don't really care about anything other than meeting compliance.

You really, really need to add Toyota to that list. Toyota hates EVs, even though they are perfectly willing to provide PHEVs. They have been fighting a rear guard action against EVs for many years, using hydrogen as their rallying cry. Maybe they really were just waiting for a really, really good battery chemistry, but I'll believe that when I see them cranking out solid state BEVs like Priuses...
While I agree Toyota has been basically anti-EV and PHEV, putting poison pills in most of their N. American offerings such as very short range on their PIP and to a lesser degree the Prius Prime which also at first only came as a 4-passenger version. Their Tesla'ish RAV4 EV being the exception but that was only available in CA(or maybe a few other CARB states?) at least now they are offering their PHEVs in all states, not just CARB states like many others. I personally believe they wasted lots of time, energy, and money on their FC vehicles which again IMO will never amount to anything, at least now they are beginning to put their resources to better use. It's a shame as we really liked our first HEV, a '07 Prius and would have gladly purchased a well-designed Toyota EV/PHEV over other mfgs. including the Leaf we purchased in '13 and still drive today along with a '12 I picked up for cheap for my daughter before we picked up her Ionic PHEV. IMO her Ionic also has a couple glaring missing features I became accustomed to owning a EV such as morning warmup, ability to heat at all on battery and a few other quirks but it does drive nice and most importantly to my daughter, it looks nice and is NOT a Prius that us old foggies drive :lol:
 
jjeff said:
This is only my opinion but personally, I believe Hyundai is like Suburu and Honda, in that their EV offerings are only compliance cars and not much more, they don't really care about anything other than meeting compliance. I know back when I was looking for a Honda PHEV no one locally would sell me one as my state wasn't a CARB state, I'd of had to drive to NY to pick one up at the time. Then came Kia with their Soul EV, again only CARB state sales, nothing in MN. When my daughter was looking for a Suburu Crosstrek PHEV we were again told by our local dealer, NOT for MN! When she finally decided on a Hyundai Ionic PHEV we ended up having to drive to CO as again NOT for MN!
CARB state state people may believe EVs and PHEVs are widely available, I can tell you this is STILL NOT the case, in a non-CARB state our only real choices are Leaf(which is how I ended up with a Leaf) and Tesla, nothing else really and things are basically the same way today.
Yes, for the US market, (as I've said numerous times) HyunKia so far, when it comes to BEVs seems only interested in CARB states + a single digit number of other states (if any). They clearly haven't cared about selling BEVs in US states outside that set. I can't speak to their stance in other parts of the world though.

I'm in CA, so I'm lucky to have so many choices. And yes, sucks to be outside CARB states and even more so states that aren't strong EV markets. Your BEV choices are few...
 
cwerdna said:
I'm in CA, so I'm lucky to have so many choices. And yes, sucks to be outside CARB states and even more so states that aren't strong EV markets. Your BEV choices are few...
As you probably know MN recently decided to join the CARB movement to a degree in the next couple of years so hopefully, we'll get more choices then. I don't think MN is adopting everything, while our cities are liberal almost all of our outstate areas are strongly conservative(or whatever you call T***p) so we are quite split but again hopefully this will mean we'll have more access to BEVs/PHEVs. I do see quite a few older Leafs in the cities, mostly because many Minnesotans are cheap and probably scooping them up for cheap on the second-hand market and a few newer designed Leafs. As far as Teslas, very very few model 3s, mostly model S models, probably older? picked up on the second-hand market and I suppose new ones too for the more well-off Minnesotans, probably more model Xs than 3s. While I'm not positive and excluding Alaska I'd have to guess MN is currently about as far from a CARB state(distance-wise) as just about any other state. I believe CO(around 900 miles from MSP) is our closest CARB state while the East coast is more like 1100-1200 miles and LA is almost 2000 miles! when I was looking for the Ionic. Maybe when mfgs. start coming out with reasonably priced EV pickups or larger SUVs we'll finally see demand...
 
jjeff said:
cwerdna said:
I'm in CA, so I'm lucky to have so many choices. And yes, sucks to be outside CARB states and even more so states that aren't strong EV markets. Your BEV choices are few...
As you probably know MN recently decided to join the CARB movement to a degree in the next couple of years so hopefully, we'll get more choices then. I don't think MN is adopting everything, while our cities are liberal almost all of our outstate areas are strongly conservative(or whatever you call T***p) so we are quite split but again hopefully this will mean we'll have more access to BEVs/PHEVs. I do see quite a few older Leafs in the cities, mostly because many Minnesotans are cheap and probably scooping them up for cheap on the second-hand market and a few newer designed Leafs. As far as Teslas, very very few model 3s, mostly model S models, probably older? picked up on the second-hand market and I suppose new ones too for the more well-off Minnesotans, probably more model Xs than 3s. While I'm not positive and excluding Alaska I'd have to guess MN is currently about as far from a CARB state(distance-wise) as just about any other state. I believe CO(around 900 miles from MSP) is our closest CARB state while the East coast is more like 1100-1200 miles and LA is almost 2000 miles! when I was looking for the Ionic. Maybe when mfgs. start coming out with reasonably priced EV pickups or larger SUVs we'll finally see demand...

What is Toyota's EV offerings for Europe, as they are way ahead, versus Hyundai? Because I agree with everything Leftie said.

Sadly If legacy automakers are dragging their feet in the US, we have only the ourselves to blame. We have let Europe get ahead of us.
Luckily I'm also in CA, so maybe I'll get a shot at a Ioniq 5.

Nice to see Rivian's rolling out of the factory though.
 
LeftieBiker said:
This is only my opinion but personally, I believe Hyundai is like Suburu and Honda, in that their EV offerings are only compliance cars and not much more, they don't really care about anything other than meeting compliance.

You really, really need to add Toyota to that list. Toyota hates EVs, even though they are perfectly willing to provide PHEVs. They have been fighting a rear guard action against EVs for many years, using hydrogen as their rallying cry. Maybe they really were just waiting for a really, really good battery chemistry, but I'll believe that when I see them cranking out solid state BEVs like Priuses...


Hyundai and Kia, like most manufacturers recently, have restricted PEVs to compliance states because sales mandates in the E.U. recently increased considerably (came into effect in 2020 IIRR), and they HAVE to sell more PEVs there or pay major fines, so we get what's left over. With chip and battery shortages, there's just not that many cars to go around.

As to Toyota, it's not a question of hating BEVs. As they've pointed out, they don't think current batteries have mass market viability, which is why they've put so much R&D money and effort into solid-state ones. They will develop and sell current BEVs in markets they're forced to, like China. I agree with them re current batteries and that PHEVs provide the best current compromise for most people, but whether you do or not, Toyota has built and sold more EVs than any company on the planet - they're just not the sub-type of EVs you want to see.
 
Toyota has built and sold more EVs than any company on the planet - they're just not the sub-type of EVs you want to see.

Only if you re-designate the acronym "EV" to mean "electrified vehicle." I'm pretty tired of going around with you, GRA. When you actually get an "EV" of either sort, I'll maybe pay attention again.
 
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