Tesla Supercharger Network

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johnlocke said:
My bet is on Tesla adding CCS Stations to Supercharger locations.
Hmmm. Only if there is excess capacity Tesla does not want for future expansion, and the CCS can be installed for a nice profit. And even then ... the first two Tesla mandates are to expand plugs and locations. Your bet does neither.
 
My bet is that Tesla will sell an adapter for ccs which will have an on board customer ID as part of the unit, and be more expensive than for Tesla customers. It will give them access to the federal funds, and in actuality, not really have too many non-teslas in their network.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
My bet is that Tesla will sell an adapter for ccs which will have an on board customer ID as part of the unit, and be more expensive than for Tesla customers. It will give them access to the federal funds, and in actuality, not really have too many non-teslas in their network.


My bet is that they are not talking about adapters at all. They are talking about new cars to be built with Tesla ports built directly into the vehicle. I have heard that Aptera is discussing putting the Tesla charge port on their car, and the timing for the announcement aligns with their schedule to have a car to show. The timing is also pretty close to when Lucid should be ready to have production cars available, so perhaps Lucid will have a Tesla charge port.

By sharing with new cars, the growth is organic and allows for this outside funding to also fund the growth of the network, rather than suddenly having a bunch of new vehicles that have access at once.
 
SageBrush said:
johnlocke said:
My bet is on Tesla adding CCS Stations to Supercharger locations.
Hmmm. Only if there is excess capacity Tesla does not want for future expansion, and the CCS can be installed for a nice profit. And even then ... the first two Tesla mandates are to expand plugs and locations. Your bet does neither.
Many cities are requiring Tesla to support other vehicles in order to build new stations, so they have to comply anyway. In some cases, there are state or federal incentives to support other charging standards. Tesla can use that money to build supercharger stations if they add a couple of CCS/CHADEMO stations as well. If Tesla has to add a few non-Tesla ports to build in a certain area, it's not a great expense and they will make a profit on it. More locations and more plugs for Tesla. In addition Tesla gets to say "See, we play nicely with others."
 
johnlocke said:
SageBrush said:
johnlocke said:
My bet is on Tesla adding CCS Stations to Supercharger locations.
Hmmm. Only if there is excess capacity Tesla does not want for future expansion, and the CCS can be installed for a nice profit. And even then ... the first two Tesla mandates are to expand plugs and locations. Your bet does neither.
Many cities are requiring Tesla to support other vehicles in order to build new stations, so they have to comply anyway. In some cases, there are state or federal incentives to support other charging standards. Tesla can use that money to build supercharger stations if they add a couple of CCS/CHADEMO stations as well. If Tesla has to add a few non-Tesla ports to build in a certain area, it's not a great expense and they will make a profit on it. More locations and more plugs for Tesla. In addition Tesla gets to say "See, we play nicely with others."
I think we agree that Tesla will add other plugs to new Supercharger locations when they can benefit from taxpayer subsidy.
 
johnlocke said:
Many cities are requiring Tesla to support other vehicles in order to build new stations, so they have to comply anyway.
Back that up with some references for evidence? I don't see how Tesla, when using it's own money, is being required to build to support other brands of vehicles.
 
jlv said:
johnlocke said:
Many cities are requiring Tesla to support other vehicles in order to build new stations, so they have to comply anyway.
Back that up with some references for evidence? I don't see how Tesla, when using it's own money, is being required to build to support other brands of vehicles.

Here is an example where Tesla wanted to install superchargers on a Pasadena city parking structure/lot and the only way they could get permission from the City of Pasadena was to provide $140K worth of infrastructure for the City to install their own fast charging stations...I think we'll see more of this in the future, including Tesla installing CCS/Chademo stations to their network so they can have an easier time of getting permission for their own stations.

https://www.pasadenastarnews.com/2019/03/07/tesla-pasadena-to-install-44-fast-chargers-for-electric-cars-atop-parking-garage-may-be-largest-charging-plaza-in-western-u-s/

Personally, if it were my decision, I wouldn't waste time, money, and engineering resources so that a Tesla SC cord would plug into a Chevy Bolt. Too many changes required on both sides (car/charger)...Just install more stations that will accommodate the other cars...Much cheaper...
 
Randy said:
Here is an example where Tesla wanted to install superchargers on a Pasadena city parking structure/lot and the only way they could get permission from the City of Pasadena was to provide $140K worth of infrastructure for the City to install their own fast charging stations..
How much did Tesla pay for spaces (aka land) ? If it was nothing, then Pasadena and Tesla simply bartered infrastructure for land. That is a lot different than your implication that Tesla was forced to support CCS to gain access. And keep in mind that we do not know if the $140k is the cost for a new infrastructure, or the cost that Tesla paid. If the former, then Tesla's cost was quite a bit less since they took advantage of the work they were already doing for the Superchargers. Passing wire in a parking garage is freaking expensive.
 
SageBrush said:
Passing wire in a parking garage is freaking expensive.


Uh, no. No one much cares about the aesthetics inside a parking garage, so you can run the wire surface-mounted in conduit, far cheaper than burial or running it inside existing walls, while being weather-protected. The only drilling or digging that may need to be done is from the transformer and/or power cabinets outside, i.e. just one wall's width. By contrast, in a parking lot you may have to bury everything.
 
GRA said:
SageBrush said:
Passing wire in a parking garage is freaking expensive.


Uh, no. No one much cares about the aesthetics inside a parking garage, so you can run the wire surface-mounted in conduit, far cheaper than burial or running it inside existing walls, while being weather-protected. The only drilling or digging that may need to be done is from the transformer and/or power cabinets outside, i.e. just one wall's width. By contrast, in a parking lot you may have to bury everything.

As usual, you don't know what you are writing about. Go back to hydrogen
 
Randy said:
Here is an example where Tesla wanted to install superchargers on a Pasadena city parking structure/lot and the only way they could get permission from the City of Pasadena was to provide $140K worth of infrastructure for the City to install their own fast charging stations...
From the article:
Besides installing its own fast-chargers, Tesla has agreed to provide the electrical infrastructure to enable the Pasadena utility to install 20 city-owned fast chargers, a $140,000 capital cost savings, according to a report from PWP submitted to the Municipal Services Committee on Feb. 26.
That is not "requiring Tesla to support other vehicles". That sounds like the town negotiated a benefit from Tesla (access to the electrical infrastructure.
 
GRA said:
SageBrush said:
Passing wire in a parking garage is freaking expensive.
Uh, no. No one much cares about the aesthetics inside a parking garage, so you can run the wire surface-mounted in conduit, far cheaper than burial or running it inside existing walls, while being weather-protected. The only drilling or digging that may need to be done is from the transformer and/or power cabinets outside, i.e. just one wall's width. By contrast, in a parking lot you may have to bury everything.
Uh, yes.
At work when we installed 20 additional Level 2 EVSEs (*) into one of our parking garages, the cost of installation dwarfed the actual cost of the EVSEs. E.g., $30K to buy the EVSEs and nearly $400K (IIRC) to do the wiring, conduit, cutting and burial of lines, etc. Our facilities guy didn't care how much the EVSEs cost as long as they were under $5K or so each, because the rest of the project was going to make that number insignificant; in fact, he may have even used the exact same words SageBrush did.

(*) https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=24456 Recommendations for light-duty commercial EVSEs
 
jlv said:
GRA said:
SageBrush said:
Passing wire in a parking garage is freaking expensive.
Uh, no. No one much cares about the aesthetics inside a parking garage, so you can run the wire surface-mounted in conduit, far cheaper than burial or running it inside existing walls, while being weather-protected. The only drilling or digging that may need to be done is from the transformer and/or power cabinets outside, i.e. just one wall's width. By contrast, in a parking lot you may have to bury everything.
Uh, yes.
At work when we installed 20 additional Level 2 EVSEs (*) into one of our parking garages, the cost of installation dwarfed the actual cost of the EVSEs. E.g., $30K to buy the EVSEs and nearly $400K (IIRC) to do the wiring, conduit, cutting and burial of lines, etc. Our facilities guy didn't care how much the EVSEs cost as long as they were under $5K or so each, because the rest of the project was going to make that number insignificant; in fact, he may have even used the exact same words SageBrush did.

(*) https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=24456 Recommendations for light-duty commercial EVSEs


None of which alters the fact that external conduit is far cheaper than having to rework existing structure or dig, bury and pave, which was my point. When the local (city-owned) parking garage installed 10 L2s and 1 dual-connector CHAdeMO, it was all done in external conduit. Same goes for the solar array they later added on the (roofless) top floor. In fact, every electrical installation they've added after the garage was first constructed, i.e. emergency call boxes, security cameras, gate sensors, elevator power and lights, has been in external conduit. The only electrical circuits with internal wire runs are the original lights, installed when built. There are upper walls that have 8 new parallel conduits stacked above each other.

So sure, it can be a lot of copper and conduit, but it's still far less expensive than digging a trench or especially opening walls/ceilings, with all the extra effort that requires.
 
From the mouth of Elon himself. Superchargers will have adaptors to fit other standards next to the charging station. Cost will be by the minute for vehicles other than Tesla and probably subject to peak usage charges during busy hours. No standard CCS or CHADEMO stations..

Apparently, Elon has decided that it's time to commercialize the Supercharger investment. Tesla can keep building Supercharger locations and they seem to think that they have enough surplus available to accommodate other brands without inconveniencing Tesla owners. Is there a spinoff of the Supercharger into a separate company or a subsidiary in the offing?
 
jlv said:
Randy said:
Here is an example where Tesla wanted to install superchargers on a Pasadena city parking structure/lot and the only way they could get permission from the City of Pasadena was to provide $140K worth of infrastructure for the City to install their own fast charging stations...
From the article:
Besides installing its own fast-chargers, Tesla has agreed to provide the electrical infrastructure to enable the Pasadena utility to install 20 city-owned fast chargers, a $140,000 capital cost savings, according to a report from PWP submitted to the Municipal Services Committee on Feb. 26.
That is not "requiring Tesla to support other vehicles". That sounds like the town negotiated a benefit from Tesla (access to the electrical infrastructure.
Call it what you want but the net result is Tesla footing the bill for non-Tesla chargers. San Diego and Santa Monica did something similar.
 
johnlocke said:
From the mouth of Elon himself. Superchargers will have adaptors to fit other standards next to the charging station. Cost will be by the minute for vehicles other than Tesla and probably subject to peak usage charges during busy hours. No standard CCS or CHADEMO stations..

Apparently, Elon has decided that it's time to commercialize the Supercharger investment. Tesla can keep building Supercharger locations and they seem to think that they have enough surplus available to accommodate other brands without inconveniencing Tesla owners. Is there a spinoff of the Supercharger into a separate company or a subsidiary in the offing?


Yes, this is good news allowing other cars on the network. The worrying part is that he said that the rates charged will depend on charging speed, So it sounded like slower charging cars will get a higher rate which will discourage them from using the Tesla Network. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. He also indicated that there may be adapters available at the stations, and they may have a way to keep them from being taken from the station.
 
palmermd said:
He also indicated that there may be adapters available at the stations, and they may have a way to keep them from being taken from the station.
I'll believe it when I see it, but if Tesla says they can/will make a Tesla -> CCS adapter, then CCS -> Tesla should be on the horizon. We should keep in mind though that CCS1 was not specifically mentioned. And if the Elon comment about preventing theft of an adapter is taken at face value, it would mean that only a subset of Supercharger stations would be enabled since the adapter would have no value other than being used at a Supercharger station.

The future is bright in EV. The timing is blurred.
 
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