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johnlocke said:
All of the Electicify America sites I've seen have a single CCS/CHADEMO combo station and several CCS only stations. CHADEMO is only given a token nod because the settlement required it....CHADEMO is dying on the vine.
Indeed on the first part. The worst I've known I pointed to at https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=604639#p604639 with 19 CCS and 1 CHAdeMO.

I've used https://www.plugshare.com/location/198205 which has 15 CCS and 1 CHAdeMO.

As for CHAdeMO dying on the vine, well, it's in no small part due to VW-owned EA's actions. Imagine if they did the opposite and installed 5 to 19 150+ kW CHAdeMO at each location and 1 50 kW CCS... Nissan's announcement of CCS for Ariya in the US and Europe put the nail in the coffin.
 
cwerdna said:
johnlocke said:
All of the Electicify America sites I've seen have a single CCS/CHADEMO combo station and several CCS only stations. CHADEMO is only given a token nod because the settlement required it....CHADEMO is dying on the vine.
Indeed on the first part. The worst I've known I pointed to at https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=604639#p604639 with 19 CCS and 1 CHAdeMO.

I've used https://www.plugshare.com/location/198205 which has 15 CCS and 1 CHAdeMO.

As for CHAdeMO dying on the vine, well, it's in no small part due to VW-owned EA's actions. Imagine if they did the opposite and installed 5 to 19 150+ kW CHAdeMO at each location and 1 50 kW CCS... Nissan's announcement of CCS for Ariya in the US and Europe put the nail in the coffin.
CHAdeMO was dying long before EA.

Even if Nissan had made a longer range car, Tesla's Supercharger network had coverage first. Only a large corporate investment in many DCQC stations would have matched that... And Nissan did do neither.

Network effect means that only one charging network is likely to survive. More traffic means more a more profitable network, more stations mean more more car sales, who gets ahead can stay ahead and drive out any competition. That is OK, if the network is open, so any car can charge and that anyone can provide a charger.

Closed == not free.
 
cwerdna said:
As for CHAdeMO dying on the vine, well, it's in no small part due to VW-owned EA's actions.
Are you also going to blame Tesla for not installing CHAdeMO plugs ?
And while you are at it, you can blame all the CCS EV manufacturers for stealing LEAF sales

:lol: :lol:

----
CHAdeMO died for a couple reasons:
1. It sucks
2. The network investment was haphazard, inefficient, and ill-conceived
3. It took a stake to the heart when Europe chose CCS. It relied on LEAF sales, and that is not nearly enough to survive, let along thrive.
 
Chademo will be with us in force for at least a couple years past the Last sold Leaf. LEAF has at least 1 more Model year, and there have some talks for a revision recently. Guessing no major decline for 5 more years. Chademo locations is still going up in 2021, and Leaf sales are going up modestly as well in the short term.

I think Chademo will continue in Norway and UK the longest beyond Japan, between Leaf (and now Lexus and Xpeng) Sales.

The NHS just picked up an additional 500 Leafs in the UK fleet segment.

https://fleetworld.co.uk/nhs-trust-adds-500-nissan-leaf-evs-to-salary-sacrifice-scheme/
 
johnlocke said:
All of the Electicify America sites I've seen have a single CCS/CHADEMO combo station and several CCS only stations. CHADEMO is only given a token nod because the settlement required it. CCS is the new standard and CHADEMO is dying on the vine.
Does anyone know what the marginal cost is to have both CCS and CHADEMO plugs on the same station? I would have guessed that to be very small relative to the overall cost of construction.

Yeah I understand VW wants to favor their own cars at the stations they build - much like Tesla. But Tesla built their network as an investment, not as part of a lawsuit settlement.
 
In other news, between about three major networks here in B.C. there will be about 112 new Chademo and CCS handles coming on line here in the next 12 to 18 months. This number has been creeping up in the last week or so. No danger of Chademo dying out here anytime soon.
 
Does anyone know what the marginal cost is to have both CCS and CHADEMO plugs on the same station? I would have guessed that to be very small relative to the overall cost of construction.

It's more than just a different plug. Chademo and CCS are two different systems, with different hardware required for the charger itself.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Does anyone know what the marginal cost is to have both CCS and CHADEMO plugs on the same station? I would have guessed that to be very small relative to the overall cost of construction.

It's more than just a different plug. Chademo and CCS are two different systems, with different hardware required for the charger itself.

I don't think that is right. Different comm protocols, yes
 
SageBrush said:
LeftieBiker said:
Does anyone know what the marginal cost is to have both CCS and CHADEMO plugs on the same station? I would have guessed that to be very small relative to the overall cost of construction.

It's more than just a different plug. Chademo and CCS are two different systems, with different hardware required for the charger itself.

I don't think that is right. Different comm protocols, yes
Different plug structure and a different comm protocol but Tesla uses both its own protocol and CCS's protocol in Europe (with a Menkes type 2 CCS plug). Nissan has gone to a CCS plug for the Ariya, so CHADEMO is effectively dead anyway.
 
johnlocke said:
SageBrush said:
LeftieBiker said:
It's more than just a different plug. Chademo and CCS are two different systems, with different hardware required for the charger itself.

I don't think that is right. Different comm protocols, yes
Different plug structure and a different comm protocol but Tesla uses both its own protocol and CCS's protocol in Europe (with a Menkes type 2 CCS plug). Nissan has gone to a CCS plug for the Ariya, so CHADEMO is effectively dead anyway.

A 'charger' is a rectifier, although in the case of a DC 'charger' both rectification and voltage change is going on. My point to Lefty is that these electric conversions are not specific to a particular EV
 
On the subject of the Supercharger network, now over 1000 stations in the USA alone, we have had some discussion in the past about how well the network serves national parks, and similar places. In my home turf of the Four Corners states, I think the answer is "pretty well" — I put together a list of national parks and monuments below. This is "flyover country" so the Supercharger network is pretty sparse, compared to the coasts, where they seem to be everywhere. Nevertheless, around here the Supercharger access to national parks and monuments is good to excellent.


Utah:
Zion National Park — St. George, UT; Cedar City, UT; Beaver, UT
Bryce Canyon National Park — Beaver, UT; Cedar City, UT; Richfield, UT
Capitol Reef National Park — Richfield, UT; Green River, UT
Arches National Park — Moab, UT
Canyonlands National Park — Moab, UT; Blanding, UT
Cedar Breaks National Monument — Cedar City, UT; Beaver, UT; Richfield, UT
Natural Bridges National Monument — Blanding, UT
Bears Ears National Monument— Blanding, UT
Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument — Page, AZ; Cedar City, UT; Beaver, UT
Hovenweep National Monument — Blanding, UT
Jurassic National Monument — Price, UT
Timpanogos Cave National Monument — Draper, UT

Colorado:
Mesa Verde National Park — Farmington, NM; Blanding, UT; Mountain Village, CO (under construction)
Black Canyon of the Gunnison National Park — Montrose, CO
Rocky Mountain National Park — Estes Park, CO; Kremmling, CO
Great Sand Dunes National Park — Poncha Springs, CO
Canyons of the Ancients National Monument — Blanding, UT; Farmington, NM; Mountain Village, CO (under construction)
Yucca House National Monument — Farmington, NM; Blanding, UT; Mountain Village, CO (under construction)
Colorado National Monument — Grand Junction, CO
Florissant Fossil Beds National Monument — Colorado Springs, CO; Monument, CO
Chimney Rock National Monument — Farmington, NM
Browns Canyon National Monument — Poncha Springs, CO

New Mexico:
Carlsbad Caverns National Park — Pecos, TX
White Sands National Park — El Paso, TX
Aztec Ruins National Monument — Farmingtion, NM
Bandelier National Monument — Santa Fe, NM
Capulin Volcano National Monument — Trinidad, CO; Clayton, NM
El Malpais National Monument — Gallup, NM; Albuquerque, NM
El Morro National Monument — Gallup, NM
Fort Union National Monument — Las Vegas, NM
Gila Cliff Dwellings National Monument — Demming, NM
Kasha-Katuwe Tent Rocks National Monument — Santa Fe, NM; Albuquerque, NM
Organ Mountains-Desert Peaks National Monument — El Paso, TX; Demming, NM; Truth or Consequences, NM
Petroglyph National Monument — Albuquerque, NM
Prehistoric Trackways National Monument — El Paso, TX; Demming, NM; Truth or Consequences, NM
Río Grande del Norte National Monument — Santa Fe, NM; Las Vegas, NM
Salinas Pueblo Missions National Monument — Albuquerque, NM

Arizona:
Grand Canyon National Park (South Rim) — Tusayan, AZ
Petrified Forest National Park — Holbrook, AZ
Saguaro National Park — Tucson, AZ; Tucson, AZ - East Skyline Drive
Agua Fria National Monument — Cordes Lakes, AZ
Canyon de Chelly National Monument — Gallup, NM
Casa Grande Ruins National Monument — Casa Grande, AZ
Chiricahua National Monument — Wilcox, AZ
Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument — St. George, UT
Hohokam Pima National Monument — Phoenix, AZ - East Camelback Road; Casa Grande, AZ
Ironwood Forest National Monument — Casa Grande, AZ
Montezuma Castle National Monument — Sedona, AZ; Cordes Lakes, AZ
Navajo National Monument — Page, AZ
Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument — Gila Bend, AZ
Pipe Spring National Monument — St. George, UT
Sonoran Desert National Monument — Gila Bend, AZ
Sunset Crater Volcano National Monument — Flagstaff, AZ
Tonto National Monument — Payson, AZ
Tuzigoot National Monument — Sedona, AZ; Cordes Lakes, AZ
Vermilion Cliffs National Monument — Page, AZ
Walnut Canyon National Monument — Flagstaff, AZ
Wupatki National Monument — Flagstaff, AZ


Still difficult to get to, explore, and return:
Dinosaur National Monument — Price, UT; Craig, CO
Grand Canyon National Park (North Rim) — Page, AZ


I'd say access to the parks and monuments is pretty good in my neighborhood. Sure wasn't that way when I got my car!


^ Supercharging in Moab, UT.
 
I think BC will see a doubling of sites from just under 20 to over 40 in a total of two years. At least two or three of them are just expansions though. Still. It’s like somebody flicked a switch. There is one going in a block away from us. Interesting setup though. Tesla is putting in 16 stalls, 4 of which are CCS and Chademo and the other 12 are Tesla. Tesla was essentially contracted to put them in. I see fencing going up close to the Walmart parking lot. It might be starting now. If it is I’ll get some pictures and post them.
 
dgpcolorado said:
Nevertheless, around here the Supercharger access to national parks and monuments is good to excellent.
Thanks for the list. That was a lot of work.

Since I was at Carlsbad Caverns not too long ago, I looked up your Pecos entry. If that example is anything to go by, then the park is reasonably served when coming from Texas, but still problematic from the other 3 directions. That may be a shortcut to using your list: if there are 4 nearby Superchargers listed it is well served; 3 Superchargers is probably OK; and less than that a YMMV
 
SageBrush said:
dgpcolorado said:
Nevertheless, around here the Supercharger access to national parks and monuments is good to excellent.
Thanks for the list. That was a lot of work.

Since I was at Carlsbad Caverns not too long ago, I looked up your Pecos entry. If that example is anything to go by, then the park is reasonably served when coming from Texas, but still problematic from the other 3 directions. That may be a shortcut to using your list: if there are 4 nearby Superchargers listed it is well served; 3 Superchargers is probably OK; and less than that a YMMV
Some of the parks I listed with just one Supercharger Station are so well served that it seems pointless to list others. Arches (Moab), Natural Bridges and Bears Ears (Blanding), Black Canyon (Montrose), Grand Canyon South Rim (Tusayan), Petrified Forest (Holbrook), for example.

Yes, Carlsbad Caverns is marginal since the only practical way to get there via Supercharger Station is from Texas; same with White Sands. Nevertheless, it can be done (sort of like having to go through Gallup to get to Page AZ for me, 238 miles extra, versus the direct route through Kayenta — it's a nuisance).

The Level 2 stations being built by Christopher Dizon ("nwdiver") in southeastern NM will help until Tesla gets around to filling in that part of the state with Supercharger Stations. For those here at MNL who want to contribute:

https://gofund.me/252513a7
 
Woohoo. It is definitely a Tesla Supercharger. It is a 16 stall site. 12 are Supercharger V3 and if rumor is true 4 are Chademo/CCS and probably under the FLO or BC Hydro banner. Tesla is being contracted to do the 4 Chademo/CCS stalls. Its like max 2 blocls from our place. Totally useless to us but great for tourism and business, 7 restaurants, a mall, Wallmart, a booze store and a weed store. If there was a strip joint it would be perfect. :)

Rumour has it this crew has 7 more of these to finish in BC before the new year, all with the same 25 percent non Tesla ration. Nice.

51317170510_3a72483f7a_c.jpg


51316372328_7993a4dc1c_c.jpg
 
Minimal detail and lots of speculation - GCR:
Musk: Tesla Supercharger network will be "open to other EVs in 2021"

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ger-network-will-be-open-to-other-evs-in-2021


Tesla CEO Elon Musk has at various points in the company’s history suggested that its Supercharger network might be opened up either to other automakers on a brand basis, or to other EVs in general.

On Tuesday Musk appeared to take that step, indicating via Twitter that the company will be “making our Supercharger network open to other EVs later this year. . . .”

Musk confirmed last year that multiple automakers are using the Supercharger network “low-key.” One of those is likely Aptera, which showed a Tesla connector in one of its videos. With its hyper-efficiency, solar-supplemented Sol, it’s not likely to bring a significant burden on the network, while at the same time showing that Tesla plays well with others. . . .

That said, the question remains: How will Tesla welcome other EVs to the Supercharger network? And which EVs will be compatible? Plenty of questions, but the answers will have to wait.



ABG article on same subject:
Tesla will open its charging network to other EVs later this year, says Musk
Compatibility and Tesla's terms are still big question marks

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/07/21/tesla-charging-network-opens-to-other-cars-this-year/



IEVS article:
Official: Tesla Superchargers Will Be Open To Other EVs This Year

https://insideevs.com/news/521623/tesla-superchargers-open-other-2021/


. . . We guess that Tesla will now switch to a new connector that will be compatible with the CCS Combo 1 (SAE J1772 Combo) because otherwise, other EVs (with CCS1 inlets) would not be able to use Tesla chargers. Superchargers in Europe were already retrofitted with CCS Combo 2-compatible plugs.

The opposite way - to open the network and continue to use a proprietary connector - would require other EV manufacturers to leave the CCS standard, and they are not willing to do it. . . .

According to Elon Musk, the opening of the network will be gradual - starting with some undisclosed initial markets and then expand globally.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
My best guess is that Tesla wants access to federal funds, and they won't get them without being open.
If adding a CCS box or 4 to a 16+ Supercharger site is being 'open' enough to gain taxpayer subsidy, Tesla will be happy to comply. And since Tesla apparently is able to build DCFC a lot cheaper than the current crop of CCS stations, the arrangement benefits both sides. And who knows, there may even be ONE 50 kW orphan CHAdeMO plug

I really did not see this accommodation coming, but it makes pretty good sense unless the demand charges upend it. I wonder who will be responsible for the O&M&billing of the non Tesla chargers. Another thought -- this just might usher in the era of Tesla battery storage at DCFC locations. Tesla's vertical integration offers a lot of value in so many ways.
 
SageBrush said:
DougWantsALeaf said:
My best guess is that Tesla wants access to federal funds, and they won't get them without being open.
If adding a CCS box or 4 to a 16+ Supercharger site is being 'open' enough to gain taxpayer subsidy, Tesla will be happy to comply. And since Tesla apparently is able to build DCFC a lot cheaper than the current crop of CCS stations, the arrangement benefits both sides. And who knows, there may even be ONE 50 kW orphan CHAdeMO plug

I really did not see this accommodation coming, but it makes pretty good sense unless the demand charges upend it. I wonder who will be responsible for the O&M&billing of the non Tesla chargers. Another thought -- this just might usher in the era of Tesla battery storage at DCFC locations. Tesla's vertical integration offers a lot of value in so many ways.
My bet is on Tesla adding CCS Stations to Supercharger locations. The infrastructure is already there. As for demand charges, Tesla is adding storage and PV to most stations which lessens peak demand and the associated charges. Tesla can charge more for CCS charging as an offset to the cost. Now if they just add a convenience store and a Cracker Box, you'd be all set.
 
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