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JeremyW
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The Open CHAdeMO Charger Topic

Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:28 pm

Hi everybody! :)

As was discussed in my "almost the CHAdeMO Spec" thread, I'm quite interested in (legally) cracking CHAdeMO for us to build our own chargers. There's a bit of legal muck surrounding CHAdeMO, due to its closed nature. I've decided to go ahead and start "the" thread leading to our reverse engineering of this spec. First, the ground rule: if you know/have the spec but are under an NDA to not talk about it, please do not post here.

Ok with the lawyers happy (I hope), lets have some fun with chargers! And yes, no matter how you slice it, a CHAdeMO EVSE is a charger. :mrgreen:

The standard can be broken down into two parts, the analog side, and the digital or CAN bus side. Fortunately, the analog side is published right on the CHAdeMO website. I posted a more clear flowchart then what was published to make it really clear as to whats going on. I thought it was alright, but some thought it was so good that I must be looking at the standard! :lol: I wasn't; I just took what was on the website, nothing more. I don't have access to the standard. Anyways, here is is:

Image

And here's a schematic, this is directly from the CHAdeMO interface.pdf available at chademo.com.

Image

As you can see, the analog side is fairly simple. It's those dang CAN messages that we need to figure out. I know there's a few sniffing the QC port, so I hope this thread will allow you to come out of the woodwork. ;) I have made a Google code site for the project, available at http://code.google.com/p/open-chademo/. I will be updating it over the weekend. :)

Now, as far as generating the high power DC (and keeping it within 2% tolerance) this is sometimes done in one big switching mode unit, or is done modularity with separate smaller supplies. The hard part about this is that you need isolation, and that means running things through a transformer. Transformer size is proportional to switching frequency, so something in the high audible range or higher (I've heard 22 kHz is used, and I can clearly hear most of them), although the new Andromeda unit uses an even higher frequency to reduce size even further.

One very important warning: You can cause a fault condition if you muck around with this port and don't play by the car's rules. That being said Ingineer has done a lot of "experimentation" and has confirmed that most codes can be cleared with a 12v battery reset.

However, there is just enough knowledge in this thread to be extremely dangerous! You have been warned. Also, high voltage kills. This is serious, high power stuff and is meant to be mostly an academic exercise. It is not cost effective to build one of these for yourself at the moment. If you want a single phase and/or low power unit unit, talk to Ingineer about modifying a commercial unit for you.

Jeremy 8-)
Last edited by JeremyW on Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:47 am, edited 4 times in total.
Former 2012 SL leasee 6/23/12 - 9/23/15
Now driving Honda Fit EV, License plate: CHADEMO
2000 Honda Insight for long trips

Herm
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Re: The Open CHAdeMO Topic

Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:10 am

So if the power fluctuates while you are using a chademo charger then its a trip to the dealership?.. sounds primitive.

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hill
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Re: The Open CHAdeMO Topic

Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:53 am

With Nissan dropping their mass produced Q.C. price all the way down to $7,675 - I don't see how one could ever think that a home brew's price could compete.

According to Nissan, the "adoption of new electric circuit technology" allowed the automaker to create a quick-charge unit that's "simple and efficient" and costs only 598,500 yen ($7,675 US at today's exchange rate). Moreover, Japanese customers can apply to be partially reimbursed by the government, lowering the actual cost of the base unit (indoor use only) to an affordable 318,500 yen ($4,109 US).


http://www.plugincars.com/nissan-kicks- ... 10631.html

Several stats incentivize charger costs in the U.S. just like in Japan ... where the incentives bring costs down way below the $7k price. I'm hoping our compay (already on demand use rates) will install one for our customers.

.

91040
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Re: The Open CHAdeMO Topic

Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:27 am

hill wrote:With Nissan dropping their mass produced Q.C. price all the way down to $7,675 - I don't see how one could ever think that a home brew's price could compete.

Alternatively, this could be used for a portable QC that could use more than the 16 Amps L2 allows. 7kW charging would then be possible from the 30A EVSEs or circuits, ~9kW from a 40A circuit, etc...
Such a unit may be less expensive than trying to upgrade the 3.3kW charger even if that becomes possible.
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TonyWilliams
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Re: The Open CHAdeMO Topic

Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:44 am

Meanwhile, Nissan and Sumitomo will launch an online charger ordering system in the US in January 2012. Installation of the DC quick-charge units will begin here in the States in spring of 2012.

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JeremyW
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Re: The Open CHAdeMO Topic

Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:05 pm

Herm wrote:So if the power fluctuates while you are using a chademo charger then its a trip to the dealership?.. sounds primitive.


I wouldn't think so. If you have a brownout, the power supplies would just draw more current. There are caps on the input and output that would give enough buffer. There are already switching mode power supplies on the market that have "AC fail" status that allows the controller to safely disengage before completely running out of power. CHAdeMO may be simple, but it is not primitive.

hill wrote:With Nissan dropping their mass produced Q.C. price all the way down to $7,675 - I don't see how one could ever think that a home brew's price could compete.


That's not exactly who we're trying to "compete" with here. Nissan (or any other commercial CHAdeMO out there) uses 3 phase AC at 208V or higher, which is not available in a residential setting. I'm hoping for something in the 10-20kW range like 91040 mentioned, perfect for a multi-ev household with a leaf or two with a 3.3kw onboard. Making something like this would surely be less expensive then upgrading the onboard charger, and would let you even beat a 2013 Leaf with a 6.6kw.

I'd also like to point out that if we can get this standard open, then it would be very valuable to the DIY electric car market. If they can use CHAdeMO as well, then that would increase demand for more stations. It could also conceivably save them money by not requiring a charger at all, just a BMS.

Jeremy
Former 2012 SL leasee 6/23/12 - 9/23/15
Now driving Honda Fit EV, License plate: CHADEMO
2000 Honda Insight for long trips

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garygid
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Re: The Open CHAdeMO Topic

Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:35 pm

Finding the "normal-operation" Chademo-CAN message-handshaking might not be too difficult.

Finding out how the Chademo CHARGER (it is not an EVSE) is to handle a sudden power outage to avoid disabling the attached car ... is much more difficult.
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
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TonyWilliams
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Re: The Open CHAdeMO Topic

Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:43 pm

I called my contact at AV (the distributor), and Nissan Customer Service, and nobody knows anything about the Nissan / Sumitomo charger yet.

More troubles in paradise.

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JeremyW
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Re: The Open CHAdeMO Topic

Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:57 pm

garygid wrote:Finding out how the Chademo CHARGER (it is not an EVSE) is to handle a sudden power outage to avoid disabling the attached car ... is much more difficult.


True. Then again, there's an emergency stop button on the commercial CHAdeMO chargers, that should kill the power pretty quickly. There has to be an "easy way out" that doesn't freak out the car. Someone hit the emergency stop when you're charging next time, and see what happens. ;) :lol:

Not to split hairs or anything, but isn't a charger a piece of "electric vehicle supply equipment," Gary? It's supplying the charge, after all... :mrgreen:
Former 2012 SL leasee 6/23/12 - 9/23/15
Now driving Honda Fit EV, License plate: CHADEMO
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Ingineer
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Re: The Open CHAdeMO Topic

Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:19 pm

FYI if anyone here wants an official CHAdeMO connector/cable for experimentation, I've got one for sale. I'd love to see a group go in on it for experimentation! =)

Image

-Phil
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