Thinking about a Leaf? Read this first

Hi everyone, I have had a very long post here for a few months (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=481164) that has finally come to a conclusion and I wanted to start a new topic to get a warning out to people that haven't kept up with it or don't want to read through 10 pages of posts.

I purchased a new 2016 Leaf with the 30 kWh battery back in September of 2016. From day one of owning the car, it consistently topped out at 70-80 miles of range, although it is EPA rated for 107 miles. At first I was just so excited about the car that I didn't really think much about it, and since my commute was only 60 miles it was still working fine for me.

Fast forward a bit, I started to realize that I was actually driving pretty conservatively (averaging 4.2-4.5 m/kWh on the console and not using any climate control) which should have given me maybe even a bit more range than the EPA estimate. I took it into the shop, they said no check engine light everything is fine. After this I bought an ODBII connector and leafspy to check out the battery. It turns out I have one cell in the battery with a 200 mV voltage differential! When the car reports that it is at very low battery (the -- for percentage indicator), it still has about 30% charge (SOC) left that is unusable because the "bad" cell is at the low voltage threshold.

Now that I know what is wrong I think, I will just take this in to Nissan and they will fix it right up. They are a big company they should stand by their cars, they probably just didn't know what was going on with it before. WRONG. They know exactly what is happening, but it is within their "allowable variance" for new cars. I escalated this to the highest levels of Nissan corporate and that is the final answer I have gotten. It is now winter time and with moderate climate control the car goes only 50-55 miles on a charge, less than I need to get to work and back. I currently own a car that I cannot use. I told the guy selling me the car that I drive 60 miles every day and if it ever gets less range than that I might as well not have a car. He said, "if you get the 30 kWh version I can guarantee you that won't happen." Well, Nissan made a liar out of him.

TLDR: Be careful about buying a new Leaf because there is a chance they will sell you one with up to 30% reduced range and then WILL NOT fix it because it is "within tolerances." In fact, I was given a loaner Leaf while mine was in the shop that had only the 24 kWh battery and it actually got MORE range than my car on the same exact commute in the same weather.

Edit: Oh and if anyone is curious I have now filed a formal complaint with the BBB against Nissan and I am going into third-party arbitration. Hopefully I will be able to get my money back and I will never buy another Nissan as long as I live. I cannot believe how they are constantly trying to fight AGAINST me to fix the car that they manufactured and sold to me.

Edit2: The person assigned to my case at Nissan corporate just randomly called and said they are going to approve a buyback. I have no idea what changed, I haven't contacted them in weeks. Glad that this is finally going to be resolved, but still frustrated that I have had to spend 100+ hours of my life in the last 5 months working on this.

Amazing story! I had not been following it.

Moral: never buy a new Leaf without checking it with Leaf Spy prior to purchase. Never would have thought that would be necessary for a new Leaf, but your bad experience shows it needs to be done to avoid a lemon that Nissan won't fix.

Stoaty said:

Amazing story! I had not been following it.

Moral: never buy a new Leaf without checking it with Leaf Spy prior to purchase. Never would have thought that would be necessary for a new Leaf, but your bad experience shows it needs to be done to avoid a lemon that Nissan won't fix.

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Yes, unfortunately I was rather naive. This is the first new car that I have ever bought and for some reason I thought that companies wouldn't sell you a broken car and then refuse to fix it. My bad.

Cryptizard said:

Edit: Oh and if anyone is curious I have now filed a formal complaint with the BBB against Nissan and I am going into third-party arbitration. Hopefully I will be able to get my money back and I will never buy another Nissan as long as I live. I cannot believe how they are constantly trying to fight AGAINST me to fix the car that they manufactured and sold to me.

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GIven the success that 2011/2012 owners had with battery degradation in BBB arbitration, this seems like the right approach. If anything, your case is even stronger than theirs because you have a new car with substantial range loss instead of a car that lost range over months and years. And if you have a new car with less available range than the older 24 Kw-hr version and bought this particular model year for its range improvement, it seems practically open and shut to me. Good warning to everyone else, though.

(By the way, it reads like a textbook case of infant mortality failure due to a manufacturing defect, so it's surprising that Nissan wouldn't make it right after escalation).

Keith

HornsKeith said:

(By the way, it reads like a textbook case of infant mortality failure due to a manufacturing defect, so it's surprising that Nissan wouldn't make it right after escalation).

Keith

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The issue is that they have some magic number that the voltage differential has to be (they won't tell me what it is) and my case is not that number. It is probably very close, but not quite a "failure" differential, so they will not fix it. Beyond that, they won't even acknowledge that anything could be wrong with it until it crosses this threshold, which is asinine.

Cryptizard said:

The issue is that they have some magic number that the voltage differential has to be (they won't tell me what it is) and my case is not that number. It is probably very close, but not quite a "failure" differential, so they will not fix it.

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That number probably varies depending on what they think they can get away with. The fact that they won't fix it suggests quality control is not so good and that if they made good they would have to fix a lot of battery packs. One more nail in the Nissan coffin for me.

Cryptizard said:

HornsKeith said:

(By the way, it reads like a textbook case of infant mortality failure due to a manufacturing defect, so it's surprising that Nissan wouldn't make it right after escalation).

Keith

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The issue is that they have some magic number that the voltage differential has to be (they won't tell me what it is) and my case is not that number. It is probably very close, but not quite a "failure" differential, so they will not fix it. Beyond that, they won't even acknowledge that anything could be wrong with it until it crosses this threshold, which is asinine.

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I would agree with DaveinOlyWA http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=22667&start=90
Try to introduce a cell over discharge DTC ( I assume you checked for any?)
On the 13's the codes were P3389-P33A4
P338D-P3398
P3381-P338C
P3375-P3380

Depending on the module location. Voltage should be lower than 5.0 Volt Keep it at a low SOC !!!
I have not ordered the 16 manual yet http://www.nissan-techinfo.com/home.aspx



Might be good thing to have.

Cryptizard said:

Hi everyone, I have had a very long post here for a few months (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=481164) that has finally come to a conclusion and I wanted to start a new topic to get a warning out to people that haven't kept up with it or don't want to read through 10 pages of posts.

...

Edit: Oh and if anyone is curious I have now filed a formal complaint with the BBB against Nissan and I am going into third-party arbitration. Hopefully I will be able to get my money back and I will never buy another Nissan as long as I live. I cannot believe how they are constantly trying to fight AGAINST me to fix the car that they manufactured and sold to me.

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I think sendler2112 in the previous thread has the real reason Nissan isn't willing to help at this point in time:
"I see one mistake they made in the new packs is that they are now glued shut instead of just bolted together with a rubber gasket so now it is much more involved to open a pack just to replace a couple weak modules. It used to be an easy job to do in the shop but now it might require a new outer case every time if the metal seam is damaged when peeling the glue open."

Now, there have been cases here on the forum where people have had individual cells replaced. Maybe they will be able to add some data about the mv difference they had when Nissan replaced their defective cells. It may be a bit ironic, but the 30% depletion in the defective cell is just about at the "about 70% remaining capacity" which was agreed upon in the Klee settlement, but which Nissan ultimately got away with the actual remaining capacity as low as 62%, if not even a bit lower. I would hope the Klee settlement would be mentioned in the current BBB case. One person on the forum here actually won their BBB case, but only through extensive research and with testimony from one or two other forum members.

Prior to presenting the BBB case, I would also request data for all individual cell replacements for any year LEAF, in order to determine if any LEAF had a cell replaced at less than the 200mv difference here. Also, it might be possible to see a pattern of that small percentage of very early cell failure and replacement in previous year LEAFs, and after the switch to glued together cases this pattern would show a marked decrease.

I will say that I too have found Nissan extremely difficult to deal with, as I had to file a formal BBB complaint just to have Nissan put the "in service" date for my LEAF in writing, for warranty documentation when I was needing my battery replaced and wanted to be sure I didn't go past the time limit. (The "in service" date is different from the purchase date for "demos," and I thought the dealership may have listed mine as a "demo.")

200mV at VLBW doesn't look too bad I think, more likely your pack just degraded from sitting on a lot, what's the SOH reading?

Edit: never mind, saw your screenshot with 121mv variance at 45% SOC, that is bad

Here is a link to the other thread with the Leafspy screenshots showing his defective cell.
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http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=22667&start=40#p472242
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I still think, especially if you are going to court and capture it all with video, you should take a drive showing the car being unplugged from a full charge, and drive all the way to turtle. As briskly as possible near your house at the end which will amplify the value of the cell mismatch so you can have the worst looking Leafspy screenshot to bring with you and to verify the poor range. The MIL light may even pop on if you accelerate briskly a few times after Very Low Battery Warning since that is the maximum way to strain that bad cell.

sendler2112 said:

Here is a link to the other thread with the Leafspy screenshots showing his defective cell.
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http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=22667&start=40#p472242
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I still think, especially if you are going to court and capture it all with video, you should take a drive showing the car being unplugged from a full charge, and drive all the way to turtle. As briskly as possible near your house at the end which will amplify the value of the cell mismatch so you can have the worst looking Leafspy screenshot to bring with you and to verify the poor range. The MIL light may even pop on if you accelerate briskly a few times after Very Low Battery Warning since that is the maximum way to strain that bad cell.

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I will give that a try, thanks for the advice.

IMO this post should stay sticky. After I myself experience incredibly bad experiences with Nissan dealers, I will never consider Nissan again. A local dealer charged me for annual battery check and some other maintenance, and I later learned that they did not do it! Because they are not leaf certified! And I could only my get my money back only after an Amex charge back.
To be fair, other brand's dealers might be as bad (maybe except Tesla). But OP's situation is unforgivable.

Cryptizard said:

I took it into the shop, they said no check engine light everything is fine. After this I bought an ODBII connector and leafspy to check out the battery. It turns out I have one cell in the battery with a 200 mV voltage differential! When the car reports that it is at very low battery (the -- for percentage indicator), it still has about 30% charge (SOC) left that is unusable because the "bad" cell is at the low voltage threshold.

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I can add that on my LEAF, with seven capacity bars gone, five remaining, considered just about if not the worst condition battery out there, getting 26 miles between full charge and LBW, the delta mv between the high and low cell was at most about 25mv!

Also, apparently somewhere in one of the two threads on this topic, it was stated that Carwings showed about 50 miles from full charge to LBW. That should also be able to be used as evidence in the BBB case, and I can add that I was getting 50 mile range at about five capacity bars gone, seven remaining.

What might be fun is to offer the BBB arbitrator a ride in the LEAF. It is rated over 100 miles by the EPA, it is a virtually new car, so they should have no problem heading east for 50 miles before turning around and coming back. Let the arbitrator drive, or even the Nissan representative, if they are concerned about driving technique. I'm pretty sure by the time they've walked the 40 or 50 miles back the case will be over.

sendler2112 said:

Here is a link to the other thread with the Leafspy screenshots showing his defective cell.
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http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=22667&start=40#p472242
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I still think, especially if you are going to court and capture it all with video, you should take a drive showing the car being unplugged from a full charge, and drive all the way to turtle. As briskly as possible near your house at the end which will amplify the value of the cell mismatch so you can have the worst looking Leafspy screenshot to bring with you and to verify the poor range. The MIL light may even pop on if you accelerate briskly a few times after Very Low Battery Warning since that is the maximum way to strain that bad cell.

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I just followed your advice and the voltage differential at turtle was 650 mV. All the good cells were within 15 mV of each other and the bad one was 650 mV lower. Do you know of anywhere that says what good and bad differential values are? 650 seems like a lot to me but I really have no idea.

Amazing that won't set a MIL light on. Post the screen shot here and on your other thread so we have a public record we can all refer to.

sendler2112 said:

Amazing that won't set a MIL light on. Post the screen shot here and on your other thread so we have a public record we can all refer to.

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Is the CVLI test description still present in the 2016 service manual or is it gone same as it happened with the table outlining the correspondence between % capacity losses and capacity bars count?

Valdemar said:

Is the CVLI test description still present in the 2016 service manual or is it gone same as it happened with the table outlining the correspondence between % capacity losses and capacity bars count?

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I don't have the service manual so I am not sure.

I see screenshots of batteries at 45% charge... WHat does it look like at 100% charge?

This, on a brand new car, screams "manufacturing defect" and I in my limited experience with car dealer leverage would say that Nissan should just swap this defective pack with a brand new one, and then they could do what they want with the (almost new) defective pack... darn, if has been hardly used>@@!!!!

Once, when I was young, my father bought a brand new Chevrolet that continually lit the red oil pressure light at low rpm.... He refused to accept having a new car that had a potentially dangerous condition that would seriously affect the life-expectancy of the BRAND NEW CAR!!

In addition to making a complaint to the company, he stopped paying his monthly financing... By next month, Chevrolet had ok'd that the dealer put in a new engine!!!

I am not suggesting that you play hardball with your credit like this, but the threat of backing out of the deal may get the higher ups attention.... At this point it sounds like it is still only at the Dealer, district manager level.... I think some LOUD complaining that will reach the National Nissan office is in order...

good luck

That screenshot makes it very obvious to even a non tecnical Judge that a bad cell with much less capacity than the rest has used up all of it's energy and has reached it's low voltage cut off which limits the car to no further forward movement even though the rest of the pack still has 23% remaining. Not to mention that all of the shunts are apparently always active trying in vain to balance the weak cell which will be wasting money every time you charge and further reducing your range when you drive.
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You have a great case now but if you could find another Leaf driver to follow you on a range test with video running in both cars to show that you are getting less range in a same day comparison, that would take away Nissan's last leg where they are saying that range varies by weather and driving style. It could even be a 24kWh car which would still beat you.
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At this point I hope you get out of your car with an additional reward for your time and distress so that you can go buy a new Chevy Volt which is a much better engineered car.
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Keep in mind that it might not be the dealer that is screwing you. They can only do what Nissan tells them to do in the case of a major component replacement.
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I know that people from Nissan read this forum. This car clearly should have had a new pack ordered with a smile long before now when He showed them the screenshots. Whether they like it or not, there is an excellent third party app that let's us see the truth. The owner and the forum has been very cooperative in trying to help to show what is wrong.
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We are trying to promote the Leaf. This is a brand new car with a serious manufacturing defect from day one. What are we supposed to think now Nissan?
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