Temperature effect on Range: Outdoor vs. Battery

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boba

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2014
Messages
82
Location
Hope Maine
Last winter I did not have LeafSpy when discussing range vs. temperature. The discussion group could not understand why my range figures were so high during cold Maine days. It turns out that battery temperature has more effect than outside temperature. Though my garage is not heated, it is insulated and has significant window area and can be 15 or more degrees above outside.

Today was a good example. Outside vs. battery temperatures = 12F/27F and the range turned out to be 75 miles. At 12 degrees or so, some report range ~45 miles. So far in all my tests battery temperature does not drop while driving at low temperature but usually increases. Since charging increases battery temperature it might be well to end charging just before use on cold days.
 
Outdoor temperature has almost no effect for range at all. Except the fact that it may be slush or snow on the road
so rolling resistance goes up.
Temperature of the chemistry is all that matters. And heating of course.
 
I have to disagree with arnis. Cold weather DOES affect your battery range. I'm not just speaking from personal experience, but from many, many posts on this site and other EV sites.

Although it doesn't get really cold here in Dallas, I see a swing of nearly 25 miles from "cold" (around freezing) temperatures to warm (around 75°F) temperatures. This is excluding the affect of climate control.
 
aarond12 said:
I have to disagree with arnis. Cold weather DOES affect your battery range. I'm not just speaking from personal experience, but from many, many posts on this site and other EV sites.

Although it doesn't get really cold here in Dallas, I see a swing of nearly 25 miles from "cold" (around freezing) temperatures to warm (around 75°F) temperatures. This is excluding the affect of climate control.
Click to expand...


Battery temperature has a larger effect than air temperature. Both have an impact.

Battery temperature reduces the amount energy the battery can store. But if you garage your car in a warm garage, or QC while on the road, the battery is warmer and can store more energy. I noticed this on a long trip this winter, with 4 DCQC stops. The first leg of the trip with a cold battery, I had less energy than later legs of the trip, after charges.

Air that is colder is denser.

Air_density_vs_temperature.jpg
 
arnis said:
Outdoor temperature has almost no effect on range at all. Except slush or snow on the road so rolling resistance goes up.
Temperature of the chemistry is all that matters. And heating.
Click to expand...



cold weather has less effects on range than rolling resistance but nowhere near to "almost no effect"

on a cold Winter day (temps below freezing although not much generally) with driver seat heater and steering wheel heaters, using defrost only enough to keep windows clear when there is no precipitation; range is roughly 88-90 miles.

warm Winter day temps in 50's, moderate to heavy rain; rain about 78-80 miles. (defrost use is at least double)

Hot Summer day. (temps above 80º) no heating sources on, A/C set to comfortable usually in the 75º range; range 95 miles.

this is my personal oft repeated observations. Now, all the above have been extrapolated to 6 GIDs. Keep in mind, the "longer the extrapolation" the greater the degree of error. I have the "privilege" of several observations where the true GID count was less than 10...
 
I can say in a regular repeatable commute I take I can hit 6.0 or better in summer on a 70F day and in winter at 0F I am lucky to see 3.0. This is using no heat either time, and no snow / slush, just cold dry roads. Granted I run snows in winter and I see about a .5 drop when I put them on, but other than that temperature makes a huge difference. Our Leaf is also kept in an insulated attached garage and rarely gets below freezing. When I leave home after charging the pack will be at about 45F and when I get home it about the same. I suppose I should try an overnight sit outside and see how much that changes it, but the outside temperature does affect range. as well as pack temperature.
 
BrockWI said:
I can say in a regular repeatable commute I take I can hit 6.0 or better in summer on a 70F day and in winter at 0F I am lucky to see 3.0. This is using no heat either time, and no snow / slush, just cold dry roads. Granted I run snows in winter and I see about a .5 drop when I put them on, but other than that temperature makes a huge difference. Our Leaf is also kept in an insulated attached garage and rarely gets below freezing. When I leave home after charging the pack will be at about 45F and when I get home it about the same. I suppose I should try an overnight sit outside and see how much that changes it, but the outside temperature does affect range. as well as pack temperature.
Click to expand...

just as you cannot use Phoenix Summers, you cannot use Green Bay Winters in a manner that anyone else can relate to. I find your statement to be simply "yours." BUT the fact remains; rain and snow is a MUCH bigger factor than cold air... but extremes are extremes...
 
While I would agree that battery temperature does affect capacity somewhat, the idea that cold outside temperatures don't significantly affect range is nonsense. Nearing the end of my fifth winter in the LEAF, I've had plenty of opportunity to see and measure the change in energy used to make the same trip at different temperatures over and over. I don't use the heater, so that's not a factor. My car is garaged so the battery almost never goes below 0ºC and is often quite a bit higher if I have been charging it.

So, yes, cold air leads to more drag and cold tires and gear lube have more rolling resistance. And the higher the speeds, the more pronounced is the drag effect. The same thing happened in my now departed ICEV, which got lower gas mileage in cold weather. On dry roads, which is what we have most of the time here in sunny Colorado.

25094206285_89138e8e7c.jpg


25094294895_f07f5c2f57_n.jpg
 
Battery has discharge efficiency. And that goes sharply down below 5C (aka less than 4 bars) on higher loads.
Any medium-hard acceleration lowers the voltage too much.
Rolling resistance does not go up with cold tires. It goes down.
Except low air pressure, but that can be fixed.

Air density might be the biggest factor on highways. (if we exclude hard accelerations, low tire pressure, winter tire type).

I have Nokian Hakka 8 tires and rolling resistance is not noticeable different compared to summer eco-tires.
I've had many cheap brand winter tires that have massive rolling resistance difference.

Oil in reduction gear is there for lubrication mostly. Gears are not submerged in oil. Cold does not have a huge
effect on resistance there. Also ATF type is flowing well even in cold temperatures.
 
arnis said:
Battery has discharge efficiency. And that goes sharply down below 5C (aka less than 4 bars) on higher loads.
Any medium-hard acceleration lowers the voltage too much.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

This effect can be very plainly seen using LEafSpy when driving on the highway at temperatures below -10C, particularly when ascending a hill. The battery cells on the ends of the stack under the rear seat are colder than those in the center. The result is higher resistance and the voltage drop is larger as you approach cell 1 or cell 48. The display of voltages shows a very pronounced hump between these two cells since the pack is warmer as you approach the center.
 
dgpcolorado said:
While I would agree that battery temperature does affect capacity somewhat, the idea that cold outside temperatures don't significantly affect range is nonsense. Nearing the end of my fifth winter in the LEAF, I've had plenty of opportunity to see and measure the change in energy used to make the same trip at different temperatures over and over. I don't use the heater, so that's not a factor. My car is garaged so the battery almost never goes below 0ºC and is often quite a bit higher if I have been charging it.

So, yes, cold air leads to more drag and cold tires and gear lube have more rolling resistance. And the higher the speeds, the more pronounced is the drag effect. The same thing happened in my now departed ICEV, which got lower gas mileage in cold weather. On dry roads, which is what we have most of the time here in sunny Colorado.

25094206285_89138e8e7c.jpg


25094294895_f07f5c2f57_n.jpg
Click to expand...

as mentioned above, definitely a factor in the degradation and could likely match rolling resistance.


You probably have a good location to try this. I have a valley descent complete with a few ups and downs a few miles from my house that I almost always drive in neutral. I come off a roundabout then accelerate to roughly 30 mph then shift to neutral then coast roughly 1½ miles. In Summer, I will hit a maximum of roughly 52-54 mph and be able to stay in neutral all the way to the turn off to my neighborhood. This I have done hundreds of times.

In Winter cold (around freezing no lower than the mid 20's or so generally) on dry pavement, I get up to roughly 46-48 mph give or take a few and do not have enough speed to make it back up a short (about 100 feet) dip in the road a few blocks from my turn.

When raining (temps can be as high as 60º but normally in upper 40's to low 50's) I start out a bit faster around 35 mph and top out at 42-44 mph. I need to go back to drive a few blocks before the dip. I don't shift back until speeds drop to near or below 30.

Granted, maybe I simply have too much time on my hands (although the above is simply part of my daily drive home) but some of you might remember Tony when he did his coasting test where he mounted various items to the roof. As always, his was more controlled and I do admit that mine is more seat of the pants but nevertheless the "Winter" adjustment is something easily noticed.

Either way; AZ tells us that extremes will cause the same effect to the extreme. I hope to continue to only imagine what it would be like in your situation :)
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
as mentioned above, definitely a factor in the degradation and could likely match rolling resistance.


You probably have a good location to try this. I have a valley descent complete with a few ups and downs a few miles from my house that I almost always drive in neutral. I come off a roundabout then accelerate to roughly 30 mph then shift to neutral then coast roughly 1½ miles. In Summer, I will hit a maximum of roughly 52-54 mph and be able to stay in neutral all the way to the turn off to my neighborhood. This I have done hundreds of times.

In Winter cold (around freezing no lower than the mid 20's or so generally) on dry pavement, I get up to roughly 46-48 mph give or take a few and do not have enough speed to make it back up a short (about 100 feet) dip in the road a few blocks from my turn.

When raining (temps can be as high as 60º but normally in upper 40's to low 50's) I start out a bit faster around 35 mph and top out at 42-44 mph. I need to go back to drive a few blocks before the dip. I don't shift back until speeds drop to near or below 30.

Granted, maybe I simply have too much time on my hands (although the above is simply part of my daily drive home) but some of you might remember Tony when he did his coasting test where he mounted various items to the roof. As always, his was more controlled and I do admit that mine is more seat of the pants but nevertheless the "Winter" adjustment is something easily noticed.

Either way; AZ tells us that extremes will cause the same effect to the extreme. I hope to continue to only imagine what it would be like in your situation :)
Click to expand...
Yes! Thank you Dave.

Unless I have someone in front of me I shift to neutral near the bottom of my big hill and then coast over the next rise before using regen to slow down for a stop sign; the distance is about a half mile. The difference between speeds on the rise in winter and summer is quite striking. This is why I have little patience with people who say that cold air has little or no effect on LEAF range and that it is just the battery or heater or fairies and gremlins. I've done the damn experiment! Cold air/cold tires increases energy use and reduces range. My driving temperature range is roughly 90ºF to 0ºF, so it is quite noticeable.

My former carpool partner got the coasting idea from me and tried it in his CUV but found that it didn't coast nearly as well as my heavy, fairly low drag, LEAF. I'm looking forward to trying it in the even heavier, lower drag, Model S.
 
You guys kill me, I have about a 1.25 mile stretch that has a down hill, then slight uphill to a left turn at the top (no stop sign) and down hill again. I have done this in neutral hundreds of times over the past 15 years in multiple vehiclesl. Thats when I found out the new tires, Bridgestone Turanza, I bought for our TDI wagon have a worse rolling resistance than the Nokian Hakka Q's (snows) and the Michelin Energy's were just slightly better than the Nokian's.

Now I know the Leaf is suppose to have a better drag than the wagon, but in the same conditions I have to be 39 mph with Ectopias on in the Leaf to make it to the turn where with the wagon and Michelin Energies I can make it starting at 35mph or 36 mph with the snows on or 38 with the Turanza's. The Leaf with stock ecotopias needs to be going 39 or 41 with Bridgestone Blizzacks. Our Van needs to be going about 46 with Energies to make it :)

I swear some people time it passing me right at the turn so I can't turn left without stopping, messing up my neutral roll :)

Oh and yes as it gets cooler out, in the Leaf, wagon or van I have to go faster to make it to the turn, summer to winter is about 5 mph difference no matter the tire or vehicle.
 

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