Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

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barsad22

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
142
Location
Berkeley, CA
Leaf owners and future owners --
I am not a Leaf-hater -- I've seen way too much complaining in these forums, so I want to say up front that this is a fantastic, revolutionary car, no matter how much Nissan oversold expectations. We are driving revolutionary vehicles, and we should appreciate it. Yes, the heat takes longer to warm the car, deal with it people!
That said, Nissan really has gone too far in its posted battery capacity and range expectations. They are much lower than advertised.
I drove off the dealership lot with 93 "miles" (owners know what I mean by "miles" instead of miles), but I have not seen that number since. 100 percent charge will get me 75-80 miles in non-Eco mode, and maybe 85 in Eco mode as I drive away from home. An 80 percent charge -- which apparently now is the RECOMMENDED daily charge to keep your battery as fresh as possible (news to me until I bought this thing) -- will only get you 70, maybe a few more in Eco mode.
How, then, can Nissan say that a full charge starts at 100 miles? We have a battery that at full capacity is about 20 percent less than what was advertised. Maybe the car's price should be 20 percent lower also? :)
As far as range goes, I have started to measure this by real miles vs. "Nissan miles." I think this is a more useful measure than detailing five or six different factors that will affect your range (wind resistance, climate control, blah blah). A Nissan mile is the unit that goes down (and up!) on this useless gauge we have in the car. That mile might equal half a real mile, or even .75 real miles, but it is almost never equivalent to a real (or road) mile.
My estimates now, with my limited driving time, is that you have to take your Nissan miles, subtract about 10 or even 20-25 miles depending on where you're driving and how many people you're carrying, and THEN you have a real range to talk about. What this means in practice is that the car has a realistic range of 50 miles on the highway, going real speeds (55 mph for your highway estimates Nissan? come on). One real world example: I start with an 80 percent charge from Berkeley, thinking it is plenty to get me into San Francisco and back. The trip (including all side trips) is only 41 real road miles. I start with 69 on the gauge, I return with FOUR miles, and nearly in "turtle mode." Whew. That's a -24 real miles to "Nissan miles" difference.
To be honest, I'm OK with 50 miles, especially since I get more like 70 when I'm off the highway. But I'm not OK with Nissan's overblown estimates that they are passing through their naive sales people in order to sell more cars. They HAVE people lined up to buy this car -- by overselling this, they are risking severe backlash once buyers realize that they have paid 40K for a car that goes 50 miles, instead of 100.
I would like to hear from other people to see if my battery capacity issues are common or maybe it's just my charger and particular car? I'd also like to hear from anyone who might know how much more battery degradation occurs when you charge at 100 percent every day, instead of the 80 percent recommended charge. I have yet to hear from Nissan about this, even though I've asked. My wife has a 50 mile commute that is too risky to do on an 80 percent charge. Again, real range estimates from Nissan would have made me think twice.

Josh
 
I think we need to know some more about your driving before we comment. Using the heater while you drive; driving over 65mph; having adverse terrain (hills) to tackle on your commute; or any combination of the aforementioned would really kill you range-wise. Do any apply?
 
Yes the 80% battery capacity is a bit of a bait and switch and they don't really describe what happens if you don't. It sounds like this is your first EV, if it's not I would think you would not have these issues with the actual range. When this forum started I mentioned these range estimates were unrealistic and would vary greatly with each driver and conditions. No surprises here for those reading the forums and owners of EVs but I do think Nissan has been quite deceptive in some areas and still are with pack capacity life and how their unofficial claims are attained. 50 miles seems a bit off though.
 
barsad22 said:
Leaf owners and future owners --
I am not a Leaf-hater -- I've seen way too much complaining in these forums, so I want to say up front that this is a fantastic, revolutionary car, no matter how much Nissan oversold expectations. We are driving revolutionary vehicles, and we should appreciate it. Yes, the heat takes longer to warm the car, deal with it people!
That said, Nissan really has gone too far in its posted battery capacity and range expectations. They are much lower than advertised.
I drove off the dealership lot with 93 "miles" (owners know what I mean by "miles" instead of miles), but I have not seen that number since. 100 percent charge will get me 75-80 miles in non-Eco mode, and maybe 85 in Eco mode as I drive away from home. An 80 percent charge -- which apparently now is the RECOMMENDED daily charge to keep your battery as fresh as possible (news to me until I bought this thing) -- will only get you 70, maybe a few more in Eco mode.
How, then, can Nissan say that a full charge starts at 100 miles? We have a battery that at full capacity is about 20 percent less than what was advertised. Maybe the car's price should be 20 percent lower also? :)
As far as range goes, I have started to measure this by real miles vs. "Nissan miles." I think this is a more useful measure than detailing five or six different factors that will effect your range (wind resistance, climate control, blah blah). A Nissan mile is the unit that goes down (and up!) on this useless gauge we have in the car. That mile might equal half a real mile, or even .75 real miles, but it is almost never equivalent to a real (or road) mile.
My estimates now, with my limited driving time, is that you have to take your Nissan miles, subtract about 10 or even 20-25 miles depending on where you're driving and how many people you're carrying, and THEN you have a real range to talk about. What this means in practice is that the car has a realistic range of 50 miles on the highway, going real speeds (55 mph for your highway estimates Nissan? come on). One real world example: I start with an 80 percent charge from Berkeley, thinking it is plenty to get me into San Francisco and back. The trip (including all side trips) is only 41 real road miles. I start with 69 on the gauge, I return with FOUR miles, and nearly in "turtle mode." Whew. That's a -24 real miles to "Nissan miles" difference.
To be honest, I'm OK with 50 miles, especially since I get more like 70 when I'm off the highway. But I'm not OK with Nissan's overblown estimates that they are passing through their naive sales people in order to sell more cars. They HAVE people lined up to buy this car -- by overselling this, they are risking severe backlash once buyers realize that they have paid 40K for a car that goes 50 miles, instead of 100.
I would like to hear from other people to see if my battery capacity issues are common or maybe it's just my charger and particular car? I'd also like to hear from anyone who might know how much more battery degradation occurs when you charge at 100 percent every day, instead of the 80 percent recommended charge. I have yet to hear from Nissan about this, even though I've asked. My wife has a 50 mile commute that is too risky to do on a 100 percent charge. Again, real range estimates from Nissan would have made me think twice.

Josh

Josh...

I think your expectations and Nissans are different, I'll grant you that. But you need to examine your driving behavior before you can say Nissan is "overblowing" their estimates. They freely admit at highway speeds your range is 60-70. I have over 2700 miles on my leaf and that's very accurate.

Highway speed kills range, so does hills. I commute 63 miles rt each day on 100% charge and make it just fine......but I ALSO don't drive my Leaf like I would an ICE. I drive 65mph max, and use regen whenever possible. I do NOT use ECO mode because I've trained myself to drive just as efficiently without it. Have you tried using ECO mode for an entire trip? My guess is no, you drive your Leaf like an ICE, and wonder where the numbers went. I routinely get in my car at work with 40 "miles" remaining, drive 32 miles home, and pull into the driveway with 20 "miles" remaining. That math doesn't add up, but its in my favor. It's all in how you drive the car. When I drive it locally with limited or no highway miles, the "miles" number and real miles are very close.

Nissan freely admits their mileage numbers are based off of the LA4 driving scenario. Try charging to 100% and driving around between 30-40mph. I'll bet you see real range numbers at 80-90 or better.

If you seriously drive the car like it needs to be driven and have taken every precaution to maximize your range, then you have legitimate complaints with Nissan. If you haven't, then I would argue that you're not giving the car enough of a chance.
 
My F150 is the same way. If I load it to rated capacity with an RV trailer it only gets half the expected EPA mileage.
I have to drive it real nice including lower than the speed limit on the freeway to get the mileage stated on the sticker.

Leaf may well be more sensitive to inefficient driving syle. And with less range it gets to be an issue quickly.
I am not sure this should be unexpected.
 
Because I had done a lot of research ahead of time, I was fully expecting to get between 65-100 miles of range depending on driving behavior. I also took into account my actual driving needs. For me, it's still the perfect car out there. But it's not for everyone.
 
I've also found it helpful to focus less on the stated miles than on the rate at which its dropping. Or just look at the "gas gauge", much like you would in an ICE car. Even ICE cars that estimate miles remaining are sketchy. There's just so many variables. Though, like others, I've found it to be pretty accurate on surface streets with the climate control off.
 
On Monday morning after a full charge, my range stated 106 "nissan miles". On Tuesday my starting range was 92. I drove 60 miles that day and returned home with 4 bars and 30 "nissan miles" remaining. On Tuesday after the same 60 miles I had 4 bars and 30 "nissan miles" again when I got home. The 106 was overstated because I do short, slow trips around town during the weekend. My 60 mile commute is probably 50% freeway speeds (65), I preheat then leave my Climate set at 71 in the morning. Climate control is usually off on the way home. I'm doing pretty much what I expected range wise with my LEAF. I expect my battery capacity will cause this to go down in the future, but hopefully my skill at driving an EV will increase in maximizing my range, so I don't think it will be a factor for quite some time. I'm very happy with my LEAF...
 
While I agree with you about finding out they recommend 80% charge, I think they published range figures are accurate.

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index#/leaf-electric-car/range-disclaimer/index
 
Dear Josh, I'd do this simple test:

Use your favorite ICE car, let it drain out it's fuel almost completly, then put the same ammount of fuel into it, equivalent to an electricity full-charge in the Leaf. How many $ do you spend there for a full electricity charge ?

Take that ICE out and drive it the very same way you drove the Leaf.

Tell us how many miles you were able to travel.

Thanks.
 
As with anything... your results may vary!

That being said I obtain well over 100 miles range every single day. I do mainly surface streets at 48-50 mph and only charge to 80% nightly. Even this morning an 80% SOC displayed a range of 107 miles. Every night I arrive home, after driving an average of 25 miles, with 78-83 miles remaining. Most times I charge every other day. You cannot drive them like the average person drives an ICE car with high expectations. Of course, I have owned several EV's and hybrids in the past and have learned how to drive a vehicle for efficiency. The same driving style can yield more range on a tank of gasoline on any ICE vehicle as well.
 
I have noticed that the battery seems to be working better because with the warmer weather my use has gotten more efficient.

I have read that the battery has to "break in" and will initially improve a little.

The range is perfect for my use.

It would be nice to have a 200 mile range. That would easily make the Bay Area accessible for me from the central valley here in CA. I haven't wanted to try a trip into the city until we start seeing some quick charging stations out there.
 
Essiemme said:
Dear Josh, I'd do this simple test:

Use your favorite ICE car, let it drain out it's fuel almost completly, then put the same ammount of fuel into it, equivalent to an electricity full-charge in the Leaf. How many $ do you spend there for a full electricity charge ?

Take that ICE out and drive it the very same way you drove the Leaf.

Tell us how many miles you were able to travel.

Thanks.


In laymans terms that's about 1 gallon of fuel. It is an interesting way to look at range issues.
 
Professional EV drivers:
There's no need to sell me on the car or tell me I had too high expectations, or to tell me that I'm an "inefficient driver" so really it's my fault rather than Nissan's. I'm an EV driver, just like you, and I support an EV future, just like you. I wouldn't have spent my life savings if that weren't the case.
What I'm trying to put out there is that Nissan is following a dangerous path and jeopardizing the Leaf's future on a mass market by putting numbers out there that don't correspond to real driving experience. We don't want this car only sold to the 20,000 people who like to get on MyNissanLeaf and talk about the car, or who have been driving EVs for 20 years. We want to sell 1,000,000 of these Leafs to people who today have never heard of the Leaf or even that there are electric cars on the road. That's the only way the world will change -- otherwise the Leafs will end up like the GM models, in a car crusher. And I think we agree that's everyone's worst nightmare.
In answer to your questions, yes, I live on a hill, and yes, I drive normal highway speed, which in 2011 is not 55-65 but is more like 65-70 unless you are going to hang out in the right lane. No, I don't blast climate control all the time and we drive in Eco mode nearly all of the time.
If one user truly got up to 107 miles on a 100% charge, then I guess there is extremely high variability on battery capacity, because as I said, I haven't cracked 90. Maybe it will improve as its used, but I doubt it.
As for the 50-mile highway range, I meant that it's 50 road miles on the recommended 80% charge, but even that will get you very close to 10 "Nissan miles" left. I find it hard to believe that people are going 60-70 miles on the highway at 80% charge.
Anyway, thanks for the driving tips, we will get better with practice. But I stand by what I said about Nissan's misinformation.

Josh
 
barsad22 said:
I find it hard to believe that people are going 60-70 miles on the highway at 80% charge.

I've done 61 miles at freeway speeds and on an 80% charge. It was a bit tight for my comfort (finished the day on my last bar and with 16 available miles showing) and it took careful driving, 65mph max speeds, and no climate control. But it was doable based on my circumstances (which doesn't include hills).
 
Nissan has been totally up front with their range estimates for different driving conditions which were published many months ago.. The EPA rating of 70 something miles is more accurate for those driving 65-70. It also all depends where you live and what conditions you drive under. My driving on LA freeways is 55 MPH for the last 18 months, and often I am moving with the flow of traffic. At other times traffic is going about 10 MPH faster, so I am in the right lane. There are many thousands of cars driving in those same conditions (I know, I see them on the freeway), so I don't think it is accurate to say across the board that one has to drive 65-70. Rush hour just isn't that fast around here.
 
barsad22 said:
There's no need to sell me on the car or tell me I had too high expectations,...
Nobody is trying to do any of that.

The fact is Nissan always said 100 miles of range using LA04 urban driving test. Did you miss the LA04 part ? They have also given very detailed driving scenarios and the range to be expected. Apparently you missed that too.

So, others are telling you to look at those disclaimers.

If one user truly got up to 107 miles on a 100% charge, then I guess there is extremely high variability on battery capacity, because as I said, I haven't cracked 90.
No - the varibility is not in battery capacity. It is in the energy needed to move the car i.e. range depends on speed and things like climate control, terrain, driving pattern. Simple fact of physics. Nobody can change that.

Just like in a gas car - the mileage you get in the city is not the same as the one you get on highway. The gas tank hasn't shrunk, but the energy usage per mile has changed.

If you hang out here you will learn all this real fast.
 
One leaf owner finds out it doesn't meet his needs after all. Another guy wonders how he might get ahold of a leaf before 2012. Hmmm... I see an opportunity for capitalism.
 
EPA says on a full charge, Leaf gets 73 mile range. (80% charge would get you 58 mile range)
Some drivers here are getting 100 mile range on a full charge.
Which is incorrect? EPA driving technique or the hyper-leafer? Same car.
EPA sticker located here

I don't fill my gas tank to 80%.
. . . I certainly don't fill the camry's tank with two gallons to give myself only an 80 mile range.
I don't charge my laptop battery to 80%
And I suspect that with my lease, charging to 100% over the next 3 years just won't be a big deal. As far as I read the warranty, they don't want you charging to 100% every night when your charge status is already nearly full. Quoted from here. But I plan to run down 40% or more of the battery each commuting day and so that shouldn't be an issue. Even if I bought the car it is unlikely that I will keep it to the 100,000 mile warranty. Some new tech thing will tempt me away.

Enjoy. If you are using so much of the battery each day, fill her up. The timer system should allow you to creep up on the 100% so you don't overdose the poor car with electric caffeine. Going from 80% down to 10% has to feel scary and going from 100% down to 30% just won't feel so bad. In three years, just think how much will have changed in the EV world. You won't be able to resist the new and improved EV . . .

Remember this funky little thing? Original Prius
19328472560.294142083.IM1.MAIN.565x421_A.562x421.jpg
 
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