battery replacement options in the future ?

Thinking of buying a nearly-new SV (2018 w/ 5k miles) and having never had an electric vehicle, we're looking down the road a little (so to speak). I understand the batteries will require replacement in 10 years or so. What assurance is there that replacement batteries would be available ? And are advances in battery technology that occur between now and then likely to be incorporated into whatever replacements are available ? Thinking possibly not, if the available replacements were manufactured earlier (e.g. now), so newer technology might be unavailable in the proper form-factor/packaging. Are my questions ridiculous because they require a crystal ball ? Thanks.

Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

RustyShackleford said:

I understand the batteries will require replacement in 10 years or so.

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What makes you think this?

RustyShackleford said:

What assurance is there that replacement batteries would be available ?

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None. However, Nissan would have warranty obligations for 40 kWh Leafs until they stop making them. 40 kWh Leafs have an 8 year/100K battery capacity and defects warranty. I suppose that could be possibly short-circuited (for lack of better terms) and if Nissan had no parts, they could do something else (e.g. buyback a vehicle).

cwerdna said:

Can you update your location info

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Done (it's central North Carolina)

What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

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Mainly my wife will use it for going to town for groceries, yoga, etc, maybe 25 miles total. Occasionally to one son's perhaps 50 RT, and other's maybe 100 RT. We're retired. Farther-away son can put in a 240v outlet. For longer trips (usually together) we'll use my Subaru or whatever we replace it with.

RustyShackleford said:

I understand the batteries will require replacement in 10 years or so.

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What makes you think this?

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The warranty implies it (seems to me).

RustyShackleford said:

What assurance is there that replacement batteries would be available ?

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None. However, Nissan would have warranty obligations for 40 kWh Leafs until they stop making them. 40 kWh Leafs have an 8 year/100K battery capacity and defects warranty. I suppose that could be possibly short-circuited (for lack of better terms) and if Nissan had no parts, they could do something else (e.g. buyback a vehicle).

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Ok, thanks.

The batteries may well stay usable to 15 years or even longer, but the range would be reduced below your needs long before then. So the real question becomes "How long before I need a new battery, and will it be possible and affordable to do so?" Given your warm-but-not-Hot climate, you have a tough choice: drive the car gently to preserve that 100+ mile range as long as possible, or drive it with indifference to battery life and hope for a warranty replacement in 5-8 years. The problem with both options is that you would spend years driving with range right around 100 miles. It might make sense to plan to turn the car in if leased, or sell it if bought, before the usable range dips under 100 miles. Given your needs it would probably make sense to plan on driving a 200+ mile range (when new) car in four years or so, unless those 100 mile RT drives don't count because of available charging at both ends..

Basically what Leftie said. The reasons for asking about location and needs are to determine range needs and if it's a hot climate (more capacity loss over time than a cooler one).

1st Leafs came out in Dec 2010, but I don't see a reason for the batteries to suddenly fail at the 10, 11 or 12 year mark (for example). They will lose capacity and maybe a lot. The worst I've seen a pic of a 2011 Leaf with 9 capacity bars out of 12 gone, which means probably 35% of capacity remaining. (See table at http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki/battery-d1/ Battery Capacity Behavior.) But the '11 and '12 Leafs had a crap chemistry. Nissan has changed the chemistry several times since then and the 40 kWh battery is too new for us to know much about how it will hold up. But, there's the 8 year/100K capacity warranty I referred to. Unfortunately, we don't know what the 8 bars represents as the table went away in later service manuals I don't know if it ever came back. Warranty talks about capacity bars, not % capacity remaining.

(Nissan has previously said "the lithium-ion battery for your 2011 or 2012 Nissan LEAF is now also warranted against capacity loss below nine (9) bars (or approximately below 70 percent" at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192 and something similar at a few other places but AFAIK, none of the US capacity warranties in the warranty booklets have ever indicated a % remaining, only capacity bars.)

I can't think of a single case of pack failure here. Plenty of older Leafs have had packs replaced for capacity loss. A tiny set of people have had a bad module, which is covered by the battery defects warranty (if not expired). The bad module gets replaced, not the entire pack.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=21997 has been swapping in packs or modules from newer wrecked Leafs w/batteries in better condition into older Leafs. I could see this happening if for some reason Nissan no longer produces 40 kWh packs. There surely will be some wrecked 40 kWh Leafs.

If you got lucky and got new pack under warranty due to losing enough bars before expiration, then you can probably go for quite awhile longer. And, having charging on both ends doubles the operating radius of an EV. You can also look for charging using https://www.plugshare.com/. You'd want to filter by J1772 and CHAdeMO (if the car has the larger DC FC inlet on the left.)

Thanks for the thoughts, guys. She (wife, it's mainly for her) went ahead and bought the car; couldn't see springing at extra $7k or so (even with the $7500 federal credit) for new instead of 1yr/5K older used.

One thing:

Given your warm-but-not-Hot climate, you have a tough choice: drive the car gently to preserve that 100+ mile range as long as possible, or drive it with indifference to battery life and hope for a warranty replacement in 5-8 years.

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Can you describe how driving style affects battery life ?

Can you describe how driving style affects battery life ?

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Not so much driving as charging behavior. Charging the battery while it is hot (more than 6 temp bars on the dash "gauge") and leaving it charged to 100% but un-driven, especially in hot weather (75F or higher) accelerate battery deterioration. Driving with a lead right foot in hot weather will also raise battery temp.

LeftieBiker said:

Can you describe how driving style affects battery life ?

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Not so much driving as charging behavior. Charging the battery while it is hot (more than 6 temp bars on the dash "gauge") ....

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Sounds like a charger that doesn't come on, until a few hours after you've plugged it in, would be useful then.

As I replied in another topic, yes. Your Leaf has 2 charge timers.

Over and above the whole environmental issue, try to focus on the personal (self centered) benefits of the car:

No gasoline exposure. Gasoline is a horrible chemical to come into contact with on a regular basis. If people knew how dangerous and unhealthy it was, they'd wear a chemical respirator and rubber gloves when filling up.

No trips to the gas station. You (and especially your wife) are no longer exposed to panhandlers, purse thieves, credit card scanners, identity theft, or any of the other numerous scumballs that can show up there.

Refined operation. The level of refinement of an EV is lightyears ahead of 99.9% of all ICE vehicles. The responsiveness and smooth power transfer are often overlooked in reviews and discussions of EV vs. lCE vehicles. But it is the #1 reason that I went that route. I started with an EV motorcycle (Vectrix VX-1) back in 08 and eventually ended up with a Leaf and a Volt. Since the Volt pretty much always runs on the electric motor, it maintains a very similar level of refinement to a true EV.

By the time I got a taste of these benefits, I decided I didn't care if I had to replace the battery pack or the whole car in 10 years. The money you save on gasoline should pay for it, to some extent if not totally, and the benefits of driving it would be well worth it.

^good points! Thanks for reminding me why I like my Leaf so much. It's easy to forget about all the 'other' advantages of an EV vs an ICE and it's good to hear them itemized so well. I'll add that I do all my ICE car's maintenance and I sure don't mind not having to change the oil on the Leaf.

retrodog said:

Over and above the whole environmental issue, try to focus on the personal (self centered) benefits of the car:

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Good points. We'll still have my ICE Subaru Outback for road trips and hauling large items (and it has roofbars). But I imagine we'll drive it less than we do now. Because most days she does the driving, shopping for groceries, yoga classes, and the like; while homebody me sits around posting on the internet or working on my various projects. When I do go out alone, she's usually at home; it's out with "the boys" evening and instead of driving the Sube I'll probably now take the Leaf. Ditto for when we go out together. The Outback will get lonely.

goldbrick said:

I'll add that I do all my ICE car's maintenance ...

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One thing that sold her on the Leaf is the notion (stated by neighbor who owns one) that there no maintenance to do. Somewhat of an exaggeration I suppose.

Consumer Reports (https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/07/zen-and-the-art-of-nissan-leaf-maintenance/index.htm) says the main thing is brake fluid changes. Funny, I've always done them every year or two on my Subaru; pretty easy one-man job with Speedbleeders (one-way valves to replace regular bleed screws). I was perplexed to see coolant change mentioned.

There's been lots of discussion on the brake fluid changes here on MNL. I'm probably going to flush mine at 5 years which will be about 40k miles at my current usage rate. I doubt I'll ever get to 100k miles on my Leaf but if I do, I will happily replace the coolant and gear oil (or not....).

My ICE cars usually last 300k miles but I just don't see my Leaf ever getting to that point. Of course, suspension parts will need to be replaced on any car before it hits that kind of mileage and brakes, wipers, light bulbs, etc all wear out eventually, but all the maintenance of an ICE - from the air intake to the exhaust system - is gone, and that is a huge part of keeping a regular car on the road.

Another thing to consider, when comparing the Leaf to other EVs is that a lot of the "leaf hate" (or just unacceptance) out there is caused by overactive hype. We have gotten to a point where a lot of the reviewers (real and faux) have subscribed to the following philosophies as nearly absolute truths:

1. Range is EVERYTHING
2. Sports handling is a necessity
3. Chademo is dead
4. Rapidgate is completely and unequivocally indefensible.

1. For me, and most people who are bi-technology (EV and ICE), the current range of 150-225 is beyond adequate for a commuter car. Even my Gen1 2015 model was more than adequate for my daily driving by a factor of 2-3x. I recently upgraded to a 2019 SV and find the 150-175 range almost putting my Volt out of commission. With the new e+ at 225, range is less of an issue but they still make it a big point that it is less than the Bolt, Niro, Kona, and Model 3. Not really a problem for most of us though.

2. Sports handling is nice if all the world (and streets) was flat. It is not. The same features that made a Subaru WRX a much faster car on the streets than a corvette is essentially the same thing that makes the leaf so much quicker and care-free for city driving than something like the Model 3. No need to slow down to 2 mph (or slower) to enter a parking lot. I have a BMW Z4 so I am intimately familiar with this problem. Same thing with a vette that I used to have. I find the Leaf to be a breeze to get around town in. I greatly prefer it as a daily driver over and above something with a sportier suspension.

3. The future of Chademo is uncertain, but I live in the Houston TX area and with the exception of the Tesla locations, pretty much all quick chargers are Chademo. Only time will tell. I don't really use quick charging though because I don't think it's good for the long-term health of the batteries... and I'll just drive the Volt if I have plans that will cause range issues.

4. Rapidgate is a PITA for anyone who wants to take a real road trip in a Leaf and needs to do multiple quick charges.... and is not wanting to sit there for a couple of hours for a charge. If you take road trips regularly and only want to own one car, then that can be a problem. Many of us only need to take long road trips 2-3 times each year, myself included. That's why I bought the Volt. But if I only wanted to own one car, I'd just get an Uber to the local Hertz or Enterprise and rent a car for those trips. They have great weekly rates. I can use the $7000 that I save by buying a Leaf (average final price difference between options listed above and the Leaf) to cover that for several years to come.

I also got the Tech and All Weather packages in my new car. And I'm pretty happy with it. It's a mini SUV with pretty good storage capacity and a low center of gravity that minimizes body lean on tight corners. It's a lot of fun and feels like a regular car when you're not pushing it hard.

Along with expecting all cars to handle like sportscars, reviewers now seem to expect and require 0-60 times under 8 seconds for all cars. That's ridiculous. The 383ci V-8 "Sport Suburban" wagon I raced in high school took 10 seconds to get to 60mph. 8 second 0-60 times at best are all anyone actually needs for real world driving - especially when the 0-40 acceleration is great.

retrodog said:

Sports handling is nice if all the world (and streets) was flat. It is not. The same features that made a Subaru WRX a much faster car on the streets than a corvette is essentially the same thing that makes the leaf so much quicker and care-free for city driving than something like the Model 3. No need to slow down to 2 mph (or slower) to enter a parking lot.

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I am confused. Sports handling is disadvantageous on real-world streets ? Why do you have to slow Tesla 3 down to 2mph entering parking lots ? Not disagreeing, just pretty confused by all this.

Rapidgate is a PITA for anyone who wants to take a real road trip in a Leaf and needs to do multiple quick charges.... and is not wanting to sit there for a couple of hours for a charge. If you take road trips regularly and only want to own one car, then that can be a problem.

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Not a big problem for retired couples (e.g. me and wife), if one doesn't mind owning an ICE car. Use it only for road-trips, or when both are going to separate places at overlapping times, both fairly infrequent for us.

I am confused. Sports handling is disadvantageous on real-world streets ? Why do you have to slow Tesla 3 down to 2mph entering parking lots ? Not disagreeing, just pretty confused by all this.

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He is talking about the rougher ride that accompanies most sport-tuned suspensions, and the low ground clearance. My old Civic Si had a good suspension that handled great without being too harsh over bumps, but it too suffered from low ground clearance.

RustyShackleford said:

retrodog said:

Sports handling is nice if all the world (and streets) was flat. It is not. The same features that made a Subaru WRX a much faster car on the streets than a corvette is essentially the same thing that makes the leaf so much quicker and care-free for city driving than something like the Model 3. No need to slow down to 2 mph (or slower) to enter a parking lot.

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I am confused. Sports handling is disadvantageous on real-world streets ? Why do you have to slow Tesla 3 down to 2mph entering parking lots ? Not disagreeing, just pretty confused by all this.

Rapidgate is a PITA for anyone who wants to take a real road trip in a Leaf and needs to do multiple quick charges.... and is not wanting to sit there for a couple of hours for a charge. If you take road trips regularly and only want to own one car, then that can be a problem.

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Not a big problem for retired couples (e.g. me and wife), if one doesn't mind owning an ICE car. Use it only for road-trips, or when both are going to separate places at overlapping times, both fairly infrequent for us.

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Yeah, what leftiebiker wrote. The big problem is the ground clearance for dips and uneven transitions into parking lots and through some terrain changes. I have to slow down both my Z4 and Volt for this. The Leaf, not so much.

The tighter (rougher) sports suspensions that they make a big deal about as an advantage actually suck on real world road surfaces that are less than perfect. Again, the Z4 and my older vette are crippled on many places that I drive. My old WRX could go anywhere, pretty much, due to more ground clearance and more vertical movement on the suspension. One of the worst things they've done with real SUVs in recent years has been tuning the suspensions to make them handle street driving better. But they are harsh on imperfections. To me, and I admittedly have not driven one yet so I'm only going by reviewers comments, I have little interest in the additional limitations that this would put on the Kia Niro and Hyundai Kona. I've driven a lot of vehicles with a lot of different suspension setups and I really like the Leaf's setup for overall handling and stability in less-than-perfect road conditions.

Also, the ride comfort, as well as ingress and egress,... all outstanding in comparison to others. I love the car, with the exception of the flared center console.

As far as less than perfect road surfaces go, choice of tires is important as well and Nissan got that one wrong by jumping on the big wheel bandwagon. 215/50R17 don't have a lot of sidewall to help absorb bumps, especially when inflated to 42 psi for efficiency, and you can't go any smaller than 16 inch wheels before the brakes get in the way. Why do you need such huge friction brakes on an EV with regenerative braking? I'd like to be able to use 205/65R15 to better deal with potholed city streets.