2019 Leaf battery overheating

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That's valuable advice. I have just finished watching a video from TeslaByorn. It is exactly what I found. Your daily range is about 500 km. End of story. And he in in Norway!

Back to my old leaf, maybe the temp gauge was shoddy but surely never saw my charge throttled down. Probably due to better cooling. Anyway this is passe.

I will get a dongle and figure out if my batt has any different behaviour. But from what I saw in the video it is pretty much what i found.

Also I only saw my car charging at 43 kW once when it was new. Since then it never went higher than 35.

I need to find that table and get a dongle. Or return the Leaf....
 
metricus said:
I will get a dongle and figure out if my batt has any different behaviour.
Good plan. In particular I would try to answer if your battery is heating up faster than expected.
If needed, here is a tutorial to measure battery resistance: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_measure_internal_resistance
LeafSpy will give you voltage and current readings as you vary load.

This video of Bjorn's at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T00TveCh-_w

has a lot of summary data.
Look at 04:30 into the video for examples of battery temperature rise during charging at different charging rates and ambient temperatures. It looks like an easy screen: much over 0.35 C/% during a moderate temperature day in your car would suggest something is amiss in your car.
 
SageBrush said:
The 62 kWh model is improved in terms of rapid-gate

That's yet to be determined, i.e. basically no data exists compared to the 40 kWh except anecdotal - especially via LeafSpy.
 
SageBrush said:
If needed, here is a tutorial to measure battery resistance: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_measure_internal_resistance
LeafSpy will give you voltage and current readings as you vary load.

Turbo3 (LeafSpy) had indicated that the Pro versus would have a feature to measure the battery resistance as in the Tesla app (TM-Spy)
and in the LeafDD (Leaf parameter app). To date it appears that the feature is not yet available in LeafSpy. Here are data from my 2013 Leaf
which provides one an idea of how battery resistance is affected by temperature, age, & SOC:

11/20/14 -13,700 miles, 76 mohms per LeafDD, 20 Deg, 73% SOC
11/27 -13,800 miles, 67 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg, 63% SOC
11/30 - 13,900 miles, 56 mohms per LeafDD, 27 deg, 71% SOC
12/2 - 14.100 miles, 55 mohms per LeafDD, 28 deg, 67% SOC
12/16 - 14,500 miles, 89 mohms per LeafDD, 15 deg, 93% SOC
12/27/14 - 14,800 miles, 103 mohms per LeafDD, 11 deg, 24% SOC
3/10 - 17,400 miles, 60 mohms per LeafDD, 30 deg, 73% SOC
3/14 - 17, 550 miles, 56 mohms per LeafDD, 32 deg, 47% SOC
4/14 - 19,100 miles, 59 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg. 38% SOC
5/4 - 19,989 miles, 64 mohms per LeafDD, 24 deg. 48% SOC
5/15 - 20,400 miles, 73 mohms per LeafDD, 20 deg. 41% SOC
5/22 - 20,700 miles, 58 mohms per LeafDD, 28 deg. 50% SOC
12/10/15 - 28,000 miles, 90 mohms per LeafDD, 19 deg. 92% SOC
4/5 - 32,000 miles, 74 mohms per LeafDD, 24 deg, 55% SOC
5/16 - 33,700 miles, 89 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 47% SOC
5/16 - 33.700 miles, 58 mohms per LeafDD, 31 deg, 76% SOC
10/5 - 39,300 miles, 100 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 50% SOC
10/6 - 39,400 miles, 61 mohms per LeafDD, 30 deg, 51% SOC
10/7 - 39,500 miles, 80 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg, 56% SOC
10/15 - 40,000 miles, 71 mohms per LeafDD, 27 deg, 45% SOC
10/30 - 41,000 miles, 74 mohms per LeafDD, 23 deg, 66% SOC
12/26/16 - 43,000 miles, 110 mohms per LeafDD, 13 deg, 77% SOC
6/10/17 - 49,600 miles, 89 mohms per LeafDD, 19 deg, 70% SOC
7/1/17 - 51,000 miles, 62 mohms per LeafDD, 33 deg, 44% SOC
8/15/17 - 53,400 miles, 61 mohms per LeafDD, 35 deg, 57% SOC
4/2/18 - 62,100 miles, 110 mohms per LeafDD, 18 deg, 94% SOC
6/13/18 - 65,000 miles, 84 mohms per LeafDD, 26 deg, 52% SOC
8/13/18 - 67,000 miles, 80 mohms per LeafDD, 26 deg, 91% SOC
9/14/18 - 68,000 miles, 84 mohms per LeafDD, 27 deg, 57% SOC
10/30/18 - 70,000 miles, 93 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 84% SOC
11/9/18 - 70,000 miles, 104 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 89% SOC
11/30/18 - 70,400 miles, 88 mohms per LeafDD, 23 deg, 88% SOC
12/6/18 - 70,800 miles, 116 mohms per LeadDD, 13 deg, 33% SOC
1/30/19 - 72,300 miles, 86 mohms, per LeadDD, 23 deg, 45% SOC

A very basic resistance test of the 2018 Leaf indicated that it had a similar resistance value to 2013, i.e. it was expected to have a lesser value
given the higher capacity.
 
lorenfb said:
SageBrush said:
If needed, here is a tutorial to measure battery resistance: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_measure_internal_resistance
LeafSpy will give you voltage and current readings as you vary load.

Turbo3 (LeafSpy) had indicated that the Pro versus would have a feature to measure the battery resistance as in the Tesla app (TM-Spy)
and in the LeafDD (Leaf parameter app).
Do you know the update frequency of the voltage and amperage that is displayed in LeafSpy ?
I've not tried to measure resistance in my battery but it appears to be a simple test. I would set my phone to record the app on the screen as I stomp on the go pedal (in order to have a ~ constant power draw.) I imagine a couple of seconds would be enough to get a stable reading.
 
SageBrush said:
lorenfb said:
SageBrush said:
If needed, here is a tutorial to measure battery resistance: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_measure_internal_resistance
LeafSpy will give you voltage and current readings as you vary load.

Turbo3 (LeafSpy) had indicated that the Pro versus would have a feature to measure the battery resistance as in the Tesla app (TM-Spy)
and in the LeafDD (Leaf parameter app).
Do you know the update frequency of the voltage and amperage that is displayed in LeafSpy ?
I've not tried to measure resistance in my battery but it appears to be a simple test. I would set my phone to record the app on the screen as I stomp on the go pedal (in order to have a ~ constant power draw.) I imagine a couple of seconds would be enough to get a stable reading.

It might also be interesting to measure battery resistance while the battery is charging at a DC fast charger.
 
SageBrush said:
lorenfb said:
SageBrush said:
If needed, here is a tutorial to measure battery resistance: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_measure_internal_resistance
LeafSpy will give you voltage and current readings as you vary load.

Turbo3 (LeafSpy) had indicated that the Pro versus would have a feature to measure the battery resistance as in the Tesla app (TM-Spy)
and in the LeafDD (Leaf parameter app).
Do you know the update frequency of the voltage and amperage that is displayed in LeafSpy ?
I've not tried to measure resistance in my battery but it appears to be a simple test. I would set my phone to record the app on the screen as I stomp on the go pedal (in order to have a ~ constant power draw.) I imagine a couple of seconds would be enough to get a stable reading.

That's exactly how it's done. The calculation is just delta V / delta I. Don't know the update rate, but would be best calculated within the app.
 
SageBrush said:
SageBrush said:
lorenfb said:
Turbo3 (LeafSpy) had indicated that the Pro versus would have a feature to measure the battery resistance as in the Tesla app (TM-Spy)
and in the LeafDD (Leaf parameter app).
Do you know the update frequency of the voltage and amperage that is displayed in LeafSpy ?
I've not tried to measure resistance in my battery but it appears to be a simple test. I would set my phone to record the app on the screen as I stomp on the go pedal (in order to have a ~ constant power draw.) I imagine a couple of seconds would be enough to get a stable reading.

It might also be interesting to measure battery resistance while the battery is charging at a DC fast charger.

Yes! Had DaveinOlyWA last year try that on his new 2018:

1. Check battery voltage (LS - LeafSpy) before pressing start on QC.
2. Once QC is started, immediately note battery voltage (LS) and charging current (QC).
3. Battery resistance = (#2 voltage - #1 voltage) / #2 current

My "friend", Oils4AsphaultOnly, tried that approach on his 30 kWh too. Both battery resistances were very similar to my 2013, not good.
 
lorenfb said:
Yes! Had DaveinOlyWA last year try that on his new 2018:

1. Check battery voltage (LS - LeafSpy) before pressing start on QC.
2. Once QC is started, immediately note battery voltage (LS) and charging current (QC).
3. Battery resistance = (#2 voltage - #1 voltage) / #2 current
How about this mod to the method:

Using LeafSpy, ~ same SoC
1. Measure i and V at home (L2 charging at 32 Amps) when the numbers are stable
2. Measure i and V at a DC fast charger when the numbers are stable
Calculate d(V)/d(i)

EA says that a DCFC is coming 'soon' to my city so that would give me another reason to try it out. ;-)
The DCFC is a gentle downhill from my home so the battery temp should change very little
 
SageBrush said:
lorenfb said:
Yes! Had DaveinOlyWA last year try that on his new 2018:

1. Check battery voltage (LS - LeafSpy) before pressing start on QC.
2. Once QC is started, immediately note battery voltage (LS) and charging current (QC).
3. Battery resistance = (#2 voltage - #1 voltage) / #2 current
How about this mod to the method:

Using LeafSpy, ~ same SoC
1. Measure i and V at home (L2 charging at 32 Amps) when the numbers are stable
2. Measure i and V at a DC fast charger when the numbers are stable
Calculate d(V)/d(i)

EA says that a DCFC is coming 'soon' to my city so that would give me another reason to try it out. ;-)
The DCFC is a gentle downhill from my home so the battery temp should change very little

Yes, but you need a step function change in current with basically a short rise time in the current (di/dt very low),
i.e. a no load to full load is ideal as in a vehicle launch mode.
 
lorenfb said:
SageBrush said:
The 62 kWh model is improved in terms of rapid-gate

That's yet to be determined, i.e. basically no data exists compared to the 40 kWh except anecdotal - especially via LeafSpy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c5LykE4J28

Bjorn reported on the e-NV200 Nissan which so far as I know has the same cooling during charging now put in the 62 kWh LEAF. The battery stayed at 40C during 25 kW charging.
 
lorenfb said:
SageBrush said:
How about this mod to the method:

Using LeafSpy, ~ same SoC
1. Measure i and V at home (L2 charging at 32 Amps) when the numbers are stable
2. Measure i and V at a DC fast charger when the numbers are stable
Calculate d(V)/d(i)

EA says that a DCFC is coming 'soon' to my city so that would give me another reason to try it out. ;-)
The DCFC is a gentle downhill from my home so the battery temp should change very little

Yes, but you need a step function change in current with basically a short rise time in the current (di/dt very low),
i.e. a no load to full load is ideal as in a vehicle launch mode.
I presume you mean a high di/dt.

Why is that preferred ? Is this an impedance Vs resistance thing ?
If so, does the battery have anything other than resistors ?
 
SageBrush said:
lorenfb said:
SageBrush said:
How about this mod to the method:

Using LeafSpy, ~ same SoC
1. Measure i and V at home (L2 charging at 32 Amps) when the numbers are stable
2. Measure i and V at a DC fast charger when the numbers are stable
Calculate d(V)/d(i)

EA says that a DCFC is coming 'soon' to my city so that would give me another reason to try it out. ;-)
The DCFC is a gentle downhill from my home so the battery temp should change very little

Yes, but you need a step function change in current with basically a short rise time in the current (di/dt very low),
i.e. a no load to full load is ideal as in a vehicle launch mode.
I presume you mean a high di/dt.

Why is that preferred ? Is this an impedance Vs resistance thing ?
If so, does the battery have anything other than resistors ?

Yes, my typo, SB high. The fast rise time of the current prevents the battery from heating up and thus distorting the measurement
based on the initial temperature reading. Yes, there're other elements, but for all practical purposes the other elements (reactive)
can be neglected.
 
SageBrush said:
Bjorn reported on the e-NV200 Nissan which so far as I know has the same cooling during charging now put in the 62 kWh LEAF. The battery stayed at 40C during 25 kW charging.

So you're implying that the Leaf Plus has active cooling (TMS) while charging based on what is said in the video?
I watched the video and nowhere does he say that both the NV200 & the Plus have active cooling.
The active cooling on the NV200 only functions while charging and with the vehicle turned-on. So one still
has the problematic heating occurring at higher speeds with NV200 as with Plus.
 
lorenfb said:
The active cooling on the NV200 only functions while charging and with the vehicle turned-on. So one still
has the problematic heating occurring at higher speeds with NV200 as with Plus.
Right, and the active cooling itself is pretty puny and I'll guess quite inefficient.
It is an improvement over nothing at all, or the software patch approved for Europe that increases the allowable temperature in the 40 kWh model.. A hack, if you will.

I watched the video and nowhere does he say that both the NV200 & the Plus have active cooling.
The NV200 (and Bjorn's video) predate the LEAF+. I've subsequently read from multiple other sources that the LEAF+ incorporates this solution. I'm too lazy to dig them up.
 
SageBrush said:
lorenfb said:
The active cooling on the NV200 only functions while charging and with the vehicle turned-on. So one still
has the problematic heating occurring at higher speeds with NV200 as with Plus.
Right, and the active cooling itself is pretty puny and I'll guess quite inefficient.
It is an improvement over nothing at all, or the software patch approved for Europe that increases the allowable temperature in the 40 kWh model.. A hack, if you will..

Probably because of lower average ambient temperatures there.

SageBrush said:
[
I watched the video and nowhere does he say that both the NV200 & the Plus have active cooling.
The NV200 (and Bjorn's video) predate the LEAF+. I've subsequently read from multiple other sources that the LEAF+ incorporates this solution. I'm too lazy to dig them up.

Interesting. Try & find the references.
 
SageBrush said:
^^
Lorenfb,
Google is your friend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcfXiNEfPsM

https://electricrevs.com/2019/01/31/does-the-new-62-kwh-leaf-battery-have-an-additional-fan-for-cooling/
 
SageBrush said:
Look at 04:30 into the video for examples of battery temperature rise during charging at different charging rates and ambient temperatures. It looks like an easy screen: much over 0.35 C/% during a moderate temperature day in your car would suggest something is amiss in your car.

First things first: I ordered an LELink#2 (apparently a newer version??).

Judging by ByornTesla's graph quoted above I frankly don't think I am on the blue graph. I realize that these instruments have a certain hysteresis curve but I never saw a charge at over 35 kW in a long time although the gauge was in the middle (26C).

We'll see.... I'll pop in the dongle when it arrives and report back.
 
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