2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

A good post for an existing topic. Mods, please merge with the 2013 bar loss topic.

Please don't open new threads for each capacity bar loss. MNL would get out of hand if everyone did that. We already have a '13 to '14 capacity bar loss thread at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18269. My own loss is at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=511915#p511915.

Also, some of the (well, at least one) moderators have complained about people unnecessarily starting new threads.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=149582#p149582
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=52644#p52644
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=517564#p517564

FWIW, my stats are now:
AHr: 55.16
SOH: 84.35% (tends to vary between 83.xx and 85.xx now)
Hx: 79.58%
odo: 57,195 miles
0 QCs (this car doesn't have a CHAdeMO inlet)
3690 L1/L2s

Silverfish said:

I hardly knew ye. But I knew it was basically a 10-bar Leaf when I bought it about 2 months ago.

Stats, for the curious:

2013 Leaf SV (built in 2/2013, so probably no lizard battery)
...
I hope the downward trend doesn't continue quite so quickly. But it is what it is.

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Definitely not lizard battery, which didn't begin until model year '15. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=513306#p513306.

The 4/2013 and later built '13 Leafs and presumably all '14 model year Leafs seem to have a better chemistry, but not as good as the "lizard" battery.

If the downward trend continues as quickly and you don't live in a hot climate (I have no idea where you're at), you were a victim of a reset.

cwerdna said:

Please don't open new threads for each capacity bar loss. MNL would get out of hand if everyone did that. We already have a '13 to '14 capacity bar loss thread at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18269. My own loss is at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=511915#p511915.

Also, some of the (well, at least one) moderators have complained about people unnecessarily starting new threads.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=149582#p149582
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=52644#p52644
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=517564#p517564

Click to expand...

Ah, sorry. I did a quick Google search and didn't find an existing topic. It's fine with me to merge this into whatever existing topic the mods choose. Or I can just delete it, if I can delete topics I opened.

cwerdna said:

Definitely not lizard battery, which didn't begin until model year '15. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=513306#p513306.

The 4/2013 and later built '13 Leafs and presumably all '14 model year Leafs seem to have a better chemistry, but not as good as the "lizard" battery.

If the downward trend continues as quickly and you don't live in a hot climate (I have no idea where you're at), you were a victim of a reset.

Click to expand...

Interesting. I had thought that the lizard battery didn't officially appear until 2015, but was actually quietly put into service in later 2013. I hadn't realized there were gradations of battery types in between.

Interesting. I had thought that the lizard battery didn't officially appear until 2015, but was actually quietly put into service in later 2013. I hadn't realized there were gradations of battery types in between.

Click to expand...

There are several generations of Leaf battery, most of which I have given nicknames to distinguish them from each other. The first, terrible pack made from 2011 through March of 2013, is the "Canary" pack because it is not resilient or long-lived except in optimum (chilly) conditions. The pack introduced in April of 2013 I nicknamed the "Wolf" pack, because it is tough and resilient in all conditions except sustained high heat. The "Lizard" pack you know about. It is somewhat better in extreme heat, but still not fantastic. Then in 2016 Nissan took two steps backwards with the "Lettuce" pack, with more initial capacity but such terrible degradation that it can easily fall below a Wolf pack in range after two years or less. They have recently introduced a firmware patch that will supposedly fix the issue, but I remain skeptical. The 40kwh pack in the 2018 Leaf seems, from very preliminary data, (unfortunately) to be another version of the Lettuce pack as far as durability of capacity goes...

No. Please don’t delete.

Silverfish said:

Interesting. I had thought that the lizard battery didn't officially appear until 2015, but was actually quietly put into service in later 2013. I hadn't realized there were gradations of battery types in between.

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No, lizard pack was NOT put into service in 2013. It appeared in model year ’15 Leafs, that began production sometime in mid-2014. Please see earlier links.

We had no idea that 4/2013+ and later Leafs but before "lizard" were apparently better. It was only years after that fact that it seemed like it was true. Nissan has never formally announced or acknowledged this revision that Leftie coined the term "Wolf" pack for.

LeftieBiker said:

Interesting. I had thought that the lizard battery didn't officially appear until 2015, but was actually quietly put into service in later 2013. I hadn't realized there were gradations of battery types in between.

Click to expand...

There are several generations of Leaf battery, most of which I have given nicknames to distinguish them from each other. The first, terrible pack made from 2011 through March of 2013, is the "Canary" pack because it is not resilient or long-lived except in optimum (chilly) conditions. The pack introduced in April of 2013 the "Wolf" pack because it is tough and resilient in all conditions except sustained high heat. The "Lizard" pack you know about. It is somewhat better in extreme heat, but still not fantastic. Then in 2016 Nissan took two steps backwards with the "Lettuce" pack, with more initial capacity but such terrible degradation that it can easily fall below a Wolf pack in range after two years or less. The 40kwh pack in the 2018 Leaf seems, unfortunately, to be another version of the Lettuce pack as far as durability of capacity goes...

Click to expand...

The 40 kWh pack is too early to tell, although I would not recommend anybody gamble on it unless the car is severely discounted.
As for the 30 kWh packs ... I am not sure. The New Zealand data posted by dwl has me edging towards the notion that they may actually be degrading at the rates seen in 24 kWh packs, as shown by the data correction after the software update.

LeftieBiker said:

Then in 2016 Nissan took two steps backwards with the "Lettuce" pack, with more initial capacity but such terrible degradation that it can easily fall below a Wolf pack in range after two years or less.

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Based on a firmware error in reporting capacity. Dyno testing shows that these batteries are similar to the "Lizard" packs, that reported capacity more closely matches the independently measured capacity after firmware updated.



https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606&start=1360#p533030

https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-nissan-leaf-firmware-update-to-correct-capacity-reporting/

I'm taking this "firmware update" with a big grain of salt. Unless people generally start reporting an increase in actual range (not SOH) that doesn't come from running the cells lower than the 24kwh pack does, I'm going to keep thinking that is Nissan playing games with the BMS that don't primarily consist of fixing a simple "error" in programming. I guess we'll see, but I'll remember to include this caveat in the future.

@WetEV That's a very well written report and their methodology seems solid too. Pretty clear that the software update is legit, dealing only with an under reporting of SoH and the related GOM range estimates. Based on their findings, it's also clear that the 30 kWh packs are degrading in a very similar fashion to 24 kWh packs. Nice to have an independent analysis, rather than just taking Nissan's word for it.

Thanks for sharing this, as I may consider a 30 kWh LEAF as a used car buy in a few years and it's good to know that, if I can get another PNW LEAF, I'll have a good chance of getting one with a healthy pack.

Hopefully the almost 1% loss of SOH per month I'm seeing, despite my cooled garage, is just another BMS "error."

LeftieBiker said:

Hopefully the almost 1% loss of SOH per month I'm seeing, despite my cooled garage, is just another BMS "error."

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You and me both.

alozzy said:

That's a very well written report and their methodology seems solid too. Pretty clear that the software update is legit, dealing only with an under reporting of SoH and the related GOM range estimates. Based on their findings, it's also clear that the 30 kWh packs are degrading in a very similar fashion to 24 kWh packs. Nice to have an independent analysis, rather than just taking Nissan's word for it.

Click to expand...

Pretty much what you'd expect as Nissan made no fundamental changes in the 30 kWh Leaf that would have caused it's pack to perform more poorly than the last 24 kWh model that it replaced. Having said that, it has been interesting to see Nissan move forward with corrections in 30 kWh BMS programming and independent analysis confirming the anticipated result.

Dooglas said:

it has been interesting to see Nissan move forward with corrections in 30 kWh BMS programming and independent analysis confirming the anticipated result.

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You can bet the LEAF battery engineers caught flak when the batteries were clearly going to need replacement in large numbers by year ~ 3 when then execs were promised 6 - 8 years.

I'm sure there was a huge collective sigh of relief when they realized it was a software correctable issue. The people who bought 30 kWh LEAFs with tax credits and the $10k NIssan discount got killer deals.

Pretty much what you'd expect as Nissan made no fundamental changes in the 30 kWh Leaf that would have caused it's pack to perform more poorly than the last 24 kWh model that it replaced.

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They increased the energy density by 25%.

LeftieBiker said:

They increased the energy density by 25%.

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As has basically every other manufacturer. You were expecting a dramatic increase in battery degradation from everyone who increased energy density of the pack?

Dooglas said:

LeftieBiker said:

They increased the energy density by 25%.

Click to expand...

As has basically every other manufacturer. You were expecting a dramatic increase in battery degradation from everyone who increased energy density of the pack?

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With no TMS? It wouldn't surprise me. Hyundai/Kia is also seeing increased degradation with no real TMS.

Just saw my AHr dip below 50, so my 2013 with 53,144 miles is at 49.756 AHr / 76% SOH. This is down from 55.446 AHr / 84% SOH back in March of this year. This summer has been brutal on the car, this is the fastest drop in capacity I've seen. Since I've never changed driving, parking, and charging habits the overall higher temperature can be the only explanation.

hmmwv said:

Just saw my AHr dip below 50, so my 2013 with 53,144 miles is at 49.756 AHr / 76% SOH. This is down from 55.446 AHr / 84% SOH back in March of this year. This summer has been brutal on the car, this is the fastest drop in capacity I've seen. Since I've never changed driving, parking, and charging habits the overall higher temperature can be the only explanation.

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@hmmwv You are right this summer was brutal (we hit 114 degrees here - highest ever) But interestingly it did not seem to effect my battery stats. My 10 bar 04/2013 is now at 48.5 AHr but ever since I purchased it the amount of loss per month has slightly decreased. When I first got it (May 2017) it was dropping .22 AHr per month and the latest reading shows .033 AHr per month. Not sure if this really means anything but so far the car meets my needs. I think I am past the point where I could ever get my battery replaced under warranty so I am hoping this trend continues for me.

Mike

https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan.leaf.owners.group/permalink/2215132265224269/ has a report of a '14 in the UK that just passed 100K miles with all 12 capacity bars remaining. The mild climate there is really helpful.

cwerdna said:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan.leaf.owners.group/permalink/2215132265224269/ has a report of a '14 in the UK that just passed 100K miles with all 12 capacity bars remaining. The mild climate there is really helpful.

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I agree about the climate, but I have my doubts that mileage matters much. Still 12 bars in 4 years, thus under 4% loss a year, is something only a LEAFer with trampled expectations can celebrate.

My car was built in 10/2013 and put in service 04/2014. It also still has 12 bars (although not for long according to LeafSpy.)