Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

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It's unclear why you think that you would be entitled to extra warranty or compensation for a product that is clearly beyond the warranty period.

Would you expect the same for your refrigerator or television that failed out of the warranty period? Or if you had a seven year old ICE that the transmission failed out of warranty?

The lesson learned here is to read the fine print of a warranty or any business contract, especially with extended warranties that are sold by retailers.

Nissan is absolutely correct that their dealers are independent owners, and that the way that they operate their business is something Nissan generally has no control of.

You say that you didn't pay attention to the terms of the manufacturer's warranty, nor did you take the time to understand the terms of the extended warranty, but you feel that somehow that the manufacturer and the retailer are liable for your actions. As the buyer of a product or service, it is your responsibility to understand the contract and the obligations of both the buyer and the seller.

Just think of this as a learning experience for you to pay better due diligence to what you are doing, especially when it comes to business transactions.

I wish you the best of luck with your next EV purchase or lease, but keep in mind that you will not be exempted from paying attention to the fine print just because you move to another brand or retailer. In fact you may have an even more unfavorable experience if you continue to not do your due diligence in the transaction.

Moving forward, since it appears that you purchased your LEAF rather than lease it, your options are to either replace the car's pack, sell the vehicle on the open market, trade it in for another vehicle, or keep the vehicle and live with its condition.

Nissan is willing to help you finance the replacement at most probably a favorable rate, which is helpful, but if your ability to afford that offer would be strained, that probably means that obtaining another vehicle might also be out of reach.

A used 2013/14/15 LEAF can be had for about $9-12K, and your vehicle is worth about $3K for trade, so that might be a better upgrade than just replacing the battery because at the end of the day you would still have a seven year old car but with a newer battery. A new battery would not change the fact that it will still be only worth $3-5K.
 
I don’t understand why people defend Nissan. We wanted to support Nissan’s first EV, and took a risk at buying a vehicle without knowing all of the problems the car might have. No one in 2011 knew that the rate of the battery degradation would be that high, which resulted in a class action.

This is not the only issue the car has. It never went 100 miles on full battery charge, as advertised. The rate of battery degradation was also falsely advertised. There is a state and federal laws are in place to protect consumers from false or misleading advertising.

I truly believe that Nissan screwed up their first clients. We would never pay 33K for a vehicle that could only go 40 miles range fully charged after 5 years of use.

I understand that most likely we will loose this case. But Nissan lost us as clients.

Some people wondered why we waited that long? Nissan assured us that we have time till 2019 to replace the battery. We wanted to replace the batter when our son turns 16. Our plan was to give him a car with a new battery and buy Nissan 2019 for us, since we already have a battery charger in the garage.

This won’t happen now.
 
I agree with your post. There are many Nissan "Fanboys" here at MNL. They spend all of their time promoting a vehicle that has had one major flaw, the battery. They promised all kinds of things in regards to the battery that we all thought were gospel. We screwed up thinking that Nissan would "take care of us". At the end of the day "we" screwed up thinking a major company would "do the right thing".

Nissan will not get any new business from many of us.
 
That is certainly one way to look at it, but many believe that we are all responsible for our decisions both good and bad. For all of you that are saying farewell to Nissan, I wish you the best of luck.
 
NissanClient73 said:
I don’t understand why people defend Nissan. .
You are new around this forum, so let me introduce myself: I am a harsh critic of the LEAF, and I think Nissan is below contempt. Right around GM level.

But that does not change my assessment of your legal arguments which I think are weak. There is huge divide between a e.g. Toyota corporate decision that would be based on meeting reasonable expectations towards the consumer, and a Nissan corporate decision that follows the letter of the contract down to the last penny if possible.

Nissan published sales promotions that they "expected" great range and durability, but that is hot air. What matters in a court is their contractual obligations which have no range minimum and a piss-poor degradation warranty squeezed out of them by a class action lawsuit. Just consider for a moment that the class action had vastly more power to it than you will ever muster and it came no where near holding Nissan to its weasel-worded promotional advertising.

They sold you a crap car, and do not have responsibility.
 
Totally agree.

SageBrush said:
NissanClient73 said:
I don’t understand why people defend Nissan. .
You are new around this forum, so let me introduce myself: I am a harsh critic of the LEAF, and I think Nissan is below contempt. Right around GM level.

But that does not change my assessment of your legal arguments which I think are weak. There is huge divide between a e.g. Toyota corporate decision that would be based on meeting reasonable expectations towards the consumer, and a Nissan corporate decision that follows the letter of the contract down to the last penny if possible.

Nissan published sales promotions that they "expected" great range and durability, but that is hot air. What matters in a court is their contractual obligations which have no range minimum and a piss-poor degradation warranty squeezed out of them by a class action lawsuit. Just consider for a moment that the class action had vastly more power to it than you will ever muster and it came no where near holding Nissan to its weasel-worded promotional advertising.

They sold you a crap car, and do not have responsibility.
 
NissanClient73 said:
I don’t understand why people defend Nissan. We wanted to support Nissan’s first EV, and took a risk at buying a vehicle without knowing all of the problems the car might have. No one in 2011 knew that the rate of the battery degradation would be that high, which resulted in a class action.

You probably don't know but OE is our local Nissan schill, if that makes you feel any better. That said, losing 4 bars after 7 years in a warm climate isn't all that unreasonable, if it happened to me (it didn't) I'd certainly accept it as a fairly good outcome of a risky experiment being an early EV adopter.
 
Valdemar said:
That said, losing 4 bars after 7 years in a warm climate isn't all that unreasonable, if it happened to me (it didn't) I'd certainly accept it as a fairly good outcome of a risky experiment being an early EV adopter.
You have a sunny disposition :D

I disagree and would feel shafted by Nissan. Oddly enough though, the rational side of me would consider buying a replacement battery if I thought it would serve me another 6-7 years. I just don't think I could stomach the idea of sending money Nissan's way even though I doubt they are profiting on the sale.

A lot of this is perception of how one is being treated. If Nissan had offered an insurance plan back in 2011 to the tune of $40 a month to keep the LEAF battery at 70% or greater for 12 years, I'll guess that people would have happily agreed and Nissan would not be excrement. The final consumer costs of course would be similar.
 
Valdemar said:
You probably don't know but OE is our local Nissan schill, if that makes you feel any better. That said, losing 4 bars after 7 years in a warm climate isn't all that unreasonable, if it happened to me (it didn't) I'd certainly accept it as a fairly good outcome of a risky experiment being an early EV adopter.


We lost 4 bars after 5 years and 3 month. We live in Northern California, the climate here is not that warm
 
NissanClient73 said:
Valdemar said:
You probably don't know but OE is our local Nissan schill, if that makes you feel any better. That said, losing 4 bars after 7 years in a warm climate isn't all that unreasonable, if it happened to me (it didn't) I'd certainly accept it as a fairly good outcome of a risky experiment being an early EV adopter.


We lost 4 bars after 5 years and 3 month. We live in Northern California, the climate here is not that warm

I was referring to another poster, sorry. 5 years and 3 months would leave me unhappy as well.
 
SageBrush said:
Valdemar said:
That said, losing 4 bars after 7 years in a warm climate isn't all that unreasonable, if it happened to me (it didn't) I'd certainly accept it as a fairly good outcome of a risky experiment being an early EV adopter.
You have a sunny disposition :D

I disagree and would feel shafted by Nissan. Oddly enough though, the rational side of me would consider buying a replacement battery if I thought it would serve me another 6-7 years. I just don't think I could stomach the idea of sending money Nissan's way even though I doubt they are profiting on the sale.

We are not going to spend more money on this car. Our older son can drive it for a couple more years until
he goes to college and then the younger one will have it for another couple of years. There is enough battery capacity for cruising around the house.

I am considering getting Tesla Model 3 for myself.
 
SageBrush said:
Valdemar said:
That said, losing 4 bars after 7 years in a warm climate isn't all that unreasonable, if it happened to me (it didn't) I'd certainly accept it as a fairly good outcome of a risky experiment being an early EV adopter.
You have a sunny disposition :D

I disagree and would feel shafted by Nissan. Oddly enough though, the rational side of me would consider buying a replacement battery if I thought it would serve me another 6-7 years. I just don't think I could stomach the idea of sending money Nissan's way even though I doubt they are profiting on the sale.

A lot of this is perception of how one is being treated. If Nissan had offered an insurance plan back in 2011 to the tune of $40 a month to keep the LEAF battery at 70% or greater for 12 years, I'll guess that people would have happily agreed and Nissan would not be excrement. The final consumer costs of course would be similar.

Like I said it didn't happen and I largely share your feelings based on my own experience. I'm also now a skeptic EVs will become an economically viable transportation technology in the observable future, unless of course oil prices shoot through the roof.
 
Valdemar said:
I'm also now a skeptic EVs will become an economically viable transportation technology in the observable future, unless of course oil prices shoot through the roof.
No doubt about it, Nissan has not (and is not) doing the EV movement any favors.
 
NissanClient73 said:
I am considering getting Tesla Model 3 for myself.
Much better choice in car, and Tesla is a much, much better company. I'll say Toyota level.

That said, Tesla repairs on their earlier models have been outrageously expensive so if you are cost sensitive you may want to wait until there are 3rd party repairs and a healthy used/aftermarket parts market. I'm confident that Tesla repairs will eventually come down in price to other mainstream cars ... but it has not happened yet.

I also own a Toyota Prius Prime. It does not satisfy my urge for a BEV but it otherwise is a fantastic car, outstanding value, and is backed by Toyota. It runs in EV around town and as an HV for my work commute. Fuel economy is stellar.
 
NissanClient73 said:
This is not the only issue the car has. It never went 100 miles on full battery charge, as advertised.
Out of curiosity, where were you seeing that 100 miles? Yes yes, Nissan has talked about 100+ miles on the LA4 cycle but the official EPA range rating on the '11 to '12 Leaf was 73 miles.

A 24 kWh Leaf on a new battery will certainly do 100+ miles on a single charge. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=296190#p296190 from http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=7022 has achieved 188 miles on a charge. https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2011/long-term-road-test/2011-nissan-leaf-driving-it-to-the-bitter-end.html achieved 132.0 miles until dead on a charge at 35 mph.

That said, I started a thread long ago https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13264 to post instances of shame were folks were still touting "100 miles" of range on a 24 kWh Leaf, which is NOT a realistic number to tell a typical ICEV driver. I even started this poll where 0 people answered that 100 miles was the "correct" value to tell people: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=11201.

On this note, http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=261746#p261746 (and my reply that followed) was to me an example of some incorrect cultural problems within Nissan. Sounds like those folks within Nissan corporate Japan felt that with the '11 and '12 Leaf, they delivered a "100 mile" vehicle. :roll:
NissanClient73 said:
The rate of battery degradation was also falsely advertised.
Yes.
NissanClient73 said:
I truly believe that Nissan screwed up their first clients. We would never pay 33K for a vehicle that could only go 40 miles range fully charged after 5 years of use.
Your car is a 4 bar loser. You are calling it quits FAR too early or driving way too fast or driving in other ways or with equipment that is inefficient (e.g. non-low rolling resistance tires, running the heater all the time, low air pressure, etc.). TonyWilliams's range tests result at https://web.archive.org/web/20160113132627/http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=228326 has a bar loser Blue494 achieving over 59 miles at 100 km/h (~62 mph).

If you want help w/range complaints, please start another thread, answering http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=275421#p275421.

If you aren't using a tool like Leaf Spy or LeafDD (https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=12561) to read battery gids along w/some their helpful tools, you should. You will be able to run your battery much closer to empty with a lot less anxiety instead of likely calling it quits too early.
NissanClient73 said:
Some people wondered why we waited that long? Nissan assured us that we have time till 2019 to replace the battery.
Who is the party in the boldface? A dealer employee (e.g. sales critter, F&I guy, etc.)? I don't think you ever answered my question: Do you have it in WRITING that your extended warranty extends the battery capacity warranty? If so, by how long?
 
cwerdna said:
Out of curiosity, where were you seeing that 100 miles? Yes yes, Nissan has talked about 100+ miles on the LA4 cycle but the official EPA range rating on the '11 to '12 Leaf was 73 miles.

This is from Nissan ad for 2011/2012 Leaf. Google it.

MPGe: 106 city / 92 highway
Battery charge time: 21h at 110V, 4h at 220V, 0.5h at 440V
Battery: 24 kWh 360 V lithium-ion

cwerdna said:
Who is the party in the boldface? A dealer employee (e.g. sales critter, F&I guy, etc.)? I don't think you ever answered my question: Do you have it in WRITING that your extended warranty extends the battery capacity warranty? If so, by how long?

I am sorry, I can’t provide you neither agents ID number nor my case number opened by that person.
However, the person who told me that we have time till 2019 to replace a battery was a Leaf specialist that answered the 1-877-664-2738.

It is documented, because the specialist that closed out case explained that that the case should not have been opened. Perhaps, the person who opened the case is already fired.

I have not had a chance to visit the links provided in your post.
 
NissanClient73 said:
cwerdna said:
Out of curiosity, where were you seeing that 100 miles? Yes yes, Nissan has talked about 100+ miles on the LA4 cycle but the official EPA range rating on the '11 to '12 Leaf was 73 miles.

This is from Nissan ad for 2011/2012 Leaf. Google it.

MPGe: 106 city / 92 highway
MPGe is NOT the range on a full charge. It is a mostly useless figure for those EV shopping.

You can see those same useless figures at https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=30979 including "73 miles Total Range".

Per https://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/electric-vehicles-learn-more-about-new-label#2
For those vehicles that do not use liquid fuels--such as electric vehicles, plug-in hybrid electric vehicles operating on electricity, and compressed natural gas vehicles-- the labels display miles per gallon of gasoline-equivalent (MPGe). Think of this as being similar to MPG, but instead of presenting miles per gallon of the vehicle’s fuel type, it represents the number of miles the vehicle can go using a quantity of fuel with the same energy content as a gallon of gasoline. This allows a reasonable comparison between vehicles using different fuels. For example, you can use MPGe to compare a compressed natural gas (CNG) vehicle with a gasoline vehicle; even though CNG is not dispensed or burned in actual gallons.
https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/gvg/learn-more-technology.htm also describes MPGe, amongst many other pages.
MPG values shown on the tire are miles per gallon of gasoline equivalent (MPGe). Non-liquid fuels, like electricity and hydrogen, are not measured in gallons, so using conversion factors allows them to be displayed on an energy-equivalent basis using the familiar MPG measurement. For example, an electric vehicle with fuel consumption of 30 kilowatt-hours/100 miles has a fuel efficiency of 112 MPGe (based on the conversion factor of 33.705 kilowatt-hours/gallon of gasoline equivalent).

NissanClient73 said:
cwerdna said:
Who is the party in the boldface? A dealer employee (e.g. sales critter, F&I guy, etc.)? I don't think you ever answered my question: Do you have it in WRITING that your extended warranty extends the battery capacity warranty? If so, by how long?

I am sorry, I can’t provide you neither agents ID number nor my case number opened by that person.
However, the person who told me that we have time till 2019 to replace a battery was a Leaf specialist that answered the 1-877-664-2738.

It is documented, because the specialist that closed out case explained that that the case should not have been opened. Perhaps, the person who opened the case is already fired.
So far, it sounds like you have no written documentation in hand to support your claim that the capacity warranty has been extended. You should've received this at pre-purchase of extended warranty, at purchase time or within a few weeks after purchase.

2011 and 2012 Leaf originally shipped with NO capacity warranty of any kind, so if you bought the extended warranty when you purchased your '11 Leaf new, it makes it even more unlikely that a capacity warranty that didn't exist was extended.

Capacity warranty was announced much later and later we learned it was due in part/mostly/completely due to the Klee class action settlement. (e.g. https://www.engadget.com/2012/12/28/nissan-will-now-restore-leafs-battery-charge/ in late 2012 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13192).
 
Correct. I have no written prove that extended warranty covers the battery degradation. Although, I have a prove that the case was opened for “battery replacement under warranty”. It was opened by Nissan. I believe that Nissan should reopen the case and fulfill their original promise to replace the battery.
 
SageBrush said:
OP, are you confusing MPGe with range ?
Looks like NissanClient73 is.

As a reference for them, https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=30979&id=32557&id=31673&id=38500 shows other (mostly useless) MPGe figures for 2 vehicles with MUCH more range autonomy and 1 less than the '11 Leaf. Their EPA range rating is also shown there.
 
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