My Experience: 2018 Leaf vs 2017 Bolt

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Joe6pack said:
Sounds like there is enough confirmation bias to go around for everyone.

:lol:

Yes, there is some of that in any major purchase decision. But there is also an array of opinions based on individual needs.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
As far as range goes; I drive a lot so one would think that range is hyper important especially in a state where less than 10 % of the VW settlement will be for public charging but its not.

Dave, I respect your opinion and appreciate how vocal you are about EVs. I'm not sure you are listening to others' opinions.

Your region is much better better covered than mine. Also, you're "drive a lot" is wildly different from my "drive a lot". I have been averaging around 2000 miles / month. I consider that driving a lot. My daily M-F driving, however, is typically less than 30 miles. My round-trip commute is 4.5 miles, and I rarely an farther than 10 miles from my home during the week.

My high mileage is because I am a bit of a "weekend warrior". I will regularly drive 500+ miles on a weekend. On average, twice a month. This is where the range of the Bolt makes all the difference over the 2018 Leaf.

I do recognize that my driving patterns are not the norm. Where I take exception is those vocal people, such as yourself, who discount or simply ignore very real use cases in favor of your own driving pattern.

DaveinOlyWA said:
Granted, this blog will be my POV and its one that must select the options based on the greatest ROI and in the new car world that is pretty much an oxymoron.

I disagree. ROI has monetary implications, but we don't have to limit ourselves to that. Since I upgraded my Leaf to a Bolt, I have been enjoying every minute of EV driving much more. I also have had many more minutes of EV driving (due to taking the car on longer trips). That joy and freedom is absolutely a return on my investment.

ROI is all about quantifying dollars and sense (that is spelled correctly) and how we value the sense is completely a personal thing. So you really can't disagree with my calculation of ROI because its simply not possible to "be like Dave."

I recycle militantly... I do it because. Unlike the municipality across the street, I don't have to fear being penalized for not recycling. I do have to pay for recycling (its not optional for any trash pickup that I know of here) but unlike most and I mean most, I do recycle just about all I can.

No one I know of, recycles all the time. They do it when its convenient or enough to not get fined. So what does this have to do with cars?

I recycle simply because its how I do life in general. Its either all the way or no way. Cars have little if any ROI. Did you hear about the S85D for sale? 30,000 miles on a 4 year old car and they are asking like $35,000. How is that for an ROI?

But we can't look at this is bought it for this, sold it for that. so we lost XX. Because the car replaces other expenses in time, convenience, work availability, even vacation availability. So it all matters. Its a trade off. You have a car so you are home for 3 extra hours a day over the bus option.

So the reality is what do you want to pay for the extra 90 miles of range you will use a few days a week? That question is different for every one. I spend a LOT of time this past Summer charging publicly including a 4 month stretch averaging more than 2 fast charges PER DAY. So it becomes a question of wasting the time or doing something while the car is charging. In reality it takes anywhere from 4 to 12 mins of nearly undivided attention to get gas, but only about 40 seconds to charge the car.

You have minimal charging options, well I feel the same way. Its not barren but its very very inadequate. Realize I am competing with 5,000 other EVs in the region and that number is growing fast.
 
Thanks, Dave. I'm pretty sure you didn't read my comment. If you did, it didn't sink in.

One more time, then I'm done. The "return" on investment does not have to be limited to financial returns. Did the owner of that Model S enjoy the heck out of it? If so, is that joy worth the depreciation cost? Because to me, that's part of ROI.

You then go on to say that you QC up to 4 times a day, yet your charging infrastructure is as barren as mine? There aren't any QCs around which I could even use in a Leaf! It's not a matter of spending time while charging the car - it's a matter of not being able to use the car at all!

I guess I'm not typing this because I expect Dave to suddenly hear me. Its more for other readers who are a little more open minded.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
test drove both and blogged about both. they are both great options with their own strong points but the reality is the ONLY point in the Bolt's favor is range and its not all that huge. At first glance the question is "how much more am I willing to pay for the extra 80-90 miles of range?"

But after the drive, its more like "How much am I willing to do without?"

FYI; if you want more regen, the LEAF has it since "one pedal driving" is standard across all packages and its just like the Bolt's low gear in that it provides a much higher level of regen and unlike the Bolt double shift, the LEAF now has a single button to push to get there

I do not fit comfortably in the new Leaf, and my son (who is taller than I am) would literally not fit.

We fit very comfortably in our Bolt EV.
 
LeftieBiker said:
but the reality is the ONLY point in the Bolt's favor is range

And horsepower. Two things...

...ok, range, horsepower and crisp handling. THREE things the Bolt has going for it. (With apologies to Monty Python.)
Range, horsepower, crisp handling and ruthless efficiency . . . I'll come in again.

(Cardinal Fang! Poke them with the soft cushions!)
 
You've just self-identified as a Geezer. Ah well, we may be giving up the world to toddlers who begin sentences with "So..." but we're still everywhere. Or, to put it another way:

"I'm NOT dead!"
 
NeilBlanchard said:
I do not fit comfortably in the new Leaf, and my son (who is taller than I am) would literally not fit.

We fit very comfortably in our Bolt EV.

Thanks to the OP For his review.

I am about 6 foot one. In the Bolt With the driver seat all the way back It was almost too far. I've never had that "Problem" in the car before. However, I fall into the camp That Chevy Bungled On the Bolt seats. I drove both Bolt Models And found The premier seat Acceptable. The LT seat gave me pains in my thighs after only 20 minutes. I read a post where some guy in California sat in multiple versions of both trim levels And discovered it was random if the seats were comfortable. YMMV So try living with the car with the car Before buying.

Something about the Bolt interior simply felt off. Perhaps because it felt like a $20,000 car interior Instead of a $40,000 car interior

But if you need Range The bolt is really the only car today.

I would Consider Leasing a 2018 Nissan leaf But I would never buy A new EV That does not have a thermally managed battery. I only paid $9,800 For my 2014 SV Leaf with only 8,700 miles So I cannot complain about battery degradation. Now at almost 16,000 miles I'm still at 95% average state of health But it has taken work to keep my numbers up.

I have my sights set On a longer-range 2020 Leaf with TMS Or a Tesla M3 if That car actually pans out.
 
NeilBlanchard said:
I do not fit comfortably in the new Leaf, and my son (who is taller than I am) would literally not fit.

We fit very comfortably in our Bolt EV.

I understand you drove a 15 Leaf S before. Does this comment mean the new Leaf is smaller or harder to get in and out of? Or that you were never really that comfortable in the 15 Leaf.

I sat in a Bolt once when they first came out and understand for some the extra height makes a big difference, but I’d have to sit in one again to focus on the difference.
 
Both the Volt and Bolt seem to be built for thin and tall people(of course you could also be short) but not stocky.
The Leaf seems to fit heavier people(and probably thin too) and also moderately tall(but also short) people.
As we live in N. America where very few are "thin" IMO the Chevy products are an epic fail, designed to not sell well in their country of origin :?
There's a reason SUVs sell so well in N. America, and its not because they are designed for thin people :idea: Why a mfg. would want to instantly alienate 60% of the population is, well shortsighted IMO.
 
I had to look that one up. I guess I've forgotten enough to start watching them again.

Tomorrow I drive a Kia Soul EV. With the great lease deals on offer for the 2017s, that might wind up being the EV for those who don't like the Bolt and can't wait for the Leaf. (Thanks, Republicans!)
 
OK, my son just traded his Leaf in for a Bolt. He really loved his leaf but... no TMS. We don't know for sure when Nissan will put TMS in their Leafs. His Leaf was going to be barely out of warranty at 8 bars so it is gone...

The last that I knew, Soul EV batteries were beginning to fail/rapidly degrade on vehicles that had only air blowing over them as TMS. Has that design recently been upgraded to liquid for Soul?

Anyway... his new Bolt is very nice! It has more headroom and more importantly, range and much longer lasting batteries. Until Nissan can make their batteries last a lot longer to match their best competition, and better their range, only the uninformed will continue to buy their product. I make that statement wishing that it wasn't the case. Nissan has been caught flat footed and resting on their laurels.

Yes the car (Bolt) is a little smaller than a Leaf but not by much. Yes, the Bolt seats are slightly narrower and slightly less comfortable, but not by much. Three people can fit in the rear seat of the Bolt but a little less comfortably, but not by much. There is a little less cargo area without the rear seats down, but not by much.

So in my opinion, battery range and battery durability of the Bolt, trump the Leaf, that has some slightly better other things.

Leaf 2018, not worth buying because of its shortcomings.
Leaf 2019, I sure hope addresses its shortcomings!
Bolt 2018, is the same as 2017 so none of its modest shortcomings are changed in the near future but possibly 2019?
 
The last that I knew, Soul EV batteries were beginning to fail/rapidly degrade on vehicles that had only air blowing over them as TMS.

Balls. I'm going to drive a Soul EV today, as a fallback option if the EV tax credit is killed. Do you mean the batteries are failing in Hot climates like the Leaf's are doing, or degrading in general???
 
LeftieBiker said:
The last that I knew, Soul EV batteries were beginning to fail/rapidly degrade on vehicles that had only air blowing over them as TMS.

Balls. I'm going to drive a Soul EV today, as a fallback option if the EV tax credit is killed. Do you mean the batteries are failing in Hot climates like the Leaf's are doing, or degrading in general???
AVTL Test results, 2015 Souls:

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/batterySoul1908.pdf

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/batterySoul1918.pdf

https://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/batterySoul1919.pdf

https://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/batterySoul1919.pdf

For a discussion types of TMs used by current PEVs, see https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/acc/mtr/appendix_c.pdf page 27 and especially page 28:
Table 3 - Battery Thermal Management Systems of Available MY16 and
Available/Announced MY17 Models.
The LEAF is the only PEV employing passive cooling. The Soul uses cooled air from the cabin, and Phoenix conditions are too much for it. Nor is liquid cooling a panacea, as it depends on the cooling system temp setpoints. The Focus has much higher setpoints for cooling to kick in than the GM models do, and the battery suffers accordingly.
 
I'll look at the links later. (I just got back from driving a Soul EV+ and I'm tired. I'll write a review later) I think that if the cooled cabin air always flows over the pack I'll be fine, as I use the A/C 90% of the time in warm weather, and 100% of the time in hot. I also keep the cabin fairly warm in Winter, and that may help Winter range, especially on longer trips.
 
Evoforce, I reached the same conclusion. We just completed our first road trip in the Bolt. 130 Mi rt, 6000 ft of gain. California freeway speed. Arrived home with 47.%. 4 mi/kWh. It worked.

Leftiebiker, I just spent an hour each way in the Bolt seats. I am in no pain, no discomfort. Yes the seats are lousy but tolerable.

As my wife said too bad we couldn't put the battery in the Leaf. Alas that's not what happened.

Paul
 
I think I can fix the Bolts' seats well enough to not hate them. The bottoms need more padding and a lot of cars had a too-long bolt installed that pushes into the cushion and into the driver's left thigh - that needs to be replaced or shortened. The road noise, on the other hand...
 
I did a test drive in a Bolt and despite all its range and performance i came away strangely unimpressed. The interior of the Leaf is in my opinion car more attractive and upscale, and its quieter and smoother riding. While I was excited about the Bolt I ended up after the test drive to give it a pass.

I think GM may be listening to the criticism, they say they will be introducing 20 vehicles in the coming months. So perhaps they will give us a slightly larger vehicle that is more comfortable but still retaining most of the Bolt's range and performance.
 
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