2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

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baustin said:
baustin said:
I took mine in today to get the warranty replacement started. Initially, they told me it would take about two hours. When I got there, all they said they needed was to plug in the Consult Tool and get a battery status printout of only 8 bars showing. They're supposed to call tomorrow, after it's ordered, to tell me when the replacement battery will arrive.
Click to expand...

Replacement traction battery arrived on October 19th and installed this morning. I took this reading just before I left the dealership.

Oct 20, 2017 - AHr=65.40, SOH=100%, Hx=100.00%, odo=25,771 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2262
Click to expand...

Exercise the pack! Get a good start in life. Ahr should be 67.36 and Hx will bloat to 105ish

Glad to see the VERY quick turnaround!
 
I took my car into the dealer for its appointment this morning and the battery check came back all five stars of course with 4 capacity bars missing.

Then the service writer came back and said the odometer had been rolled back and the car really had 60,129 miles on it despite the odometer showing 37,500! Yikes!

The Carfax report and Nissan's database show the last service visit in July of 2017 with ~37,000 miles on the odometer and as it's technically impossible to drive a Nissan Leaf 25,000 miles in ten weeks I asked if the OBD tool was ever wrong. They confirmed that it's sometimes incorrect. LeafSpy, Carfax, and the Nissan service database all align with the visible odometer so the dealer is going to call Nissan on Monday and see what's up.

Apparently this dealer has had at least two other (non-Leaf) Nissans erroneously show a dramatically higher odometer readings on the tech tool as opposed to the dash reading so I'll wait until Monday's results from Nissan corporate before freaking out and confronting the selling dealer and Carfax.

The dealer says that if Nissan corporate goes by the dash odometer reading then they'll order a replacement battery for the car on Monday and it'll arrive "in four to six weeks" which seems to be the standard response. The service writer did say that they've been arriving faster than that, however. Fingers crossed for Monday.
 
achewt said:
I have definitely seen a trend of Ahr/SOH swinging fairly consistently with ambient temperature since I started tracking data in November 2015. I first posted about it in my regular 6 month cost update Nov 2016 http://kootenayevfamily.ca/cost-update-96000-km-and-2-5-years/ (scroll down to the header on LeafSpy). The pattern continued through last winter, noted at http://kootenayevfamily.ca/cost-update-3-years-and-117000-km/ in May of this year. I saw the trend continue into the summer - in June 2017 my Ahr reached 55.89 and 85% SOH again (same as from the previous August, after going to a high of 93%.

I finally lost my first bar after being below 85% for a few months on August 31, 2017. Stats as follows:
Ahr=54.50, SOH=83%, Hx=79.72%, odo=127,413km, 53 QCs
(I haven't posted the L1/L2s, because I often use the charge timer, which inflates this value substantially, counts once when you plug in, another when it starts charging)

I'm now 4,000 km further along here into October, and my stats are now back to (as of Oct 10):
Ahr=55.68, SOH=85%, Hx=82.63%, odo=131,562km
The lost bar hasn't re-appeared... but I'll be curious to see if it does!

We had a nice hot summer from June through first two weeks of September (+30C most days), then high 20C throughout September, and only recently has it cooled down and become rainy. Start here -> http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climate_data/daily_data_e.html?StationID=31067&timeframe=2&StartYear=1840&EndYear=2017&Day=19&Year=2017&Month=6#, and click on the next month button to flip through and get an idea of the temps the car sits in all day long in a baking asphalt parking lot. At night, it is in a carport that is built into north-facing hillside, so it does get a chance to cool down usually to 5 or 6 bars, but each day was up to 7. Now with the cool weather in October, starting each day with 4 bars, and after charging for a few hours just before I leave work, it is back up to 5 bars.

TLDR; - in my experience, you can only trend your own personal LeafSpy data year-over-year with roughly similar climate conditions. So I'll carry on and expect to see 87-88% SOH by November, where it will plateau for a few months, then drop right back down in the spring and reach a low by the end of summer 2018. I'm going to take a stab at 80% (assuming I continue with similar commute).
Click to expand...

Thank you for posting as well as the detail you've put into data collection.

My climate is remarkably similar to yours based on temperatures, with yours being a little warmer in summer and cooler in spring/fall. Winters appear approximately the same. Thanks to wunderground.com for helping me translate metric units to freedom units for comparison :) My annual distance driven is also similar.

While I don't anticipate making it to 70,000+ miles before losing my first bar, your year-over-year data suggests that my first bar may last well into next summer. After a wild spring, my data has settled into an Hx and SOH around 89 as well as AHrs in the 57.5 to 59 range. Winter temperatures should pump up my readings significantly, although I'm sure I'll never approach the middle 60s in AHrs again.

I still maintain based on this data swing based on ambient/battery temperatures that it would be difficult to evaluate a Leaf's battery condition in winter - below 40 degrees F - based on juiced readings. This would make it hard to buy a used Leaf and know battery condition from November-April north of the 37th parallel outside of the Pacific Northwest.

Achewt, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see you regain your lost bar briefly when your ambient temperatures maintain around 0C and a battery temperature of not more than 15C.
 
silverone said:
achewt said:
I have definitely seen a trend of Ahr/SOH swinging fairly consistently with ambient temperature since I started tracking data in November 2015. I first posted about it in my regular 6 month cost update Nov 2016 http://kootenayevfamily.ca/cost-update-96000-km-and-2-5-years/ (scroll down to the header on LeafSpy). The pattern continued through last winter, noted at http://kootenayevfamily.ca/cost-update-3-years-and-117000-km/ in May of this year. I saw the trend continue into the summer - in June 2017 my Ahr reached 55.89 and 85% SOH again (same as from the previous August, after going to a high of 93%.

I finally lost my first bar after being below 85% for a few months on August 31, 2017. Stats as follows:
Ahr=54.50, SOH=83%, Hx=79.72%, odo=127,413km, 53 QCs
(I haven't posted the L1/L2s, because I often use the charge timer, which inflates this value substantially, counts once when you plug in, another when it starts charging)

I'm now 4,000 km further along here into October, and my stats are now back to (as of Oct 10):
Ahr=55.68, SOH=85%, Hx=82.63%, odo=131,562km
The lost bar hasn't re-appeared... but I'll be curious to see if it does!

We had a nice hot summer from June through first two weeks of September (+30C most days), then high 20C throughout September, and only recently has it cooled down and become rainy. Start here -> http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climate_data/daily_data_e.html?StationID=31067&timeframe=2&StartYear=1840&EndYear=2017&Day=19&Year=2017&Month=6#, and click on the next month button to flip through and get an idea of the temps the car sits in all day long in a baking asphalt parking lot. At night, it is in a carport that is built into north-facing hillside, so it does get a chance to cool down usually to 5 or 6 bars, but each day was up to 7. Now with the cool weather in October, starting each day with 4 bars, and after charging for a few hours just before I leave work, it is back up to 5 bars.

TLDR; - in my experience, you can only trend your own personal LeafSpy data year-over-year with roughly similar climate conditions. So I'll carry on and expect to see 87-88% SOH by November, where it will plateau for a few months, then drop right back down in the spring and reach a low by the end of summer 2018. I'm going to take a stab at 80% (assuming I continue with similar commute).
Click to expand...

Thank you for posting as well as the detail you've put into data collection.

My climate is remarkably similar to yours based on temperatures, with yours being a little warmer in summer and cooler in spring/fall. Winters appear approximately the same. Thanks to wunderground.com for helping me translate metric units to freedom units for comparison :) My annual distance driven is also similar.

While I don't anticipate making it to 70,000+ miles before losing my first bar, your year-over-year data suggests that my first bar may last well into next summer. After a wild spring, my data has settled into an Hx and SOH around 89 as well as AHrs in the 57.5 to 59 range. Winter temperatures should pump up my readings significantly, although I'm sure I'll never approach the middle 60s in AHrs again.

I still maintain based on this data swing based on ambient/battery temperatures that it would be difficult to evaluate a Leaf's battery condition in winter - below 40 degrees F - based on juiced readings. This would make it hard to buy a used Leaf and know battery condition from November-April north of the 37th parallel outside of the Pacific Northwest.

Achewt, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see you regain your lost bar briefly when your ambient temperatures maintain around 0C and a battery temperature of not more than 15C.
Click to expand...

You're welcome! I agree with you on your assessment WRT evaluating potential used vehicles. Cheers.
 
The dealer was reading my odometer from the Nissan tool in kilometers which is why it said I was over 60,000.

As such I’m within the warranty period with four bars lost and the battery has been ordered for my car. “Four weeks.”
 
All your posts really did help. I came to the feeling that it's not that bad and it is what it is. I had already started just "driving" it like a car and not worrying about stuff.

Well yesterday I Level 2 charged it to 100%. I hadn't really fully charged the thing in about 4 months and I figured it'd be good to re-balance the battery pack. Today I hooked up LeafSpy to see if the numbers changed drastically because of the 100% charge/re-balance and I got these numbers (my first post's numbers are included first):

10/08/17: AHr= 54.98 SOH= 84% SOC= 70.9% Hx= 81.09% 384.78V -0.45A odo= 23,798 3 QCs & 1417 L1/L2s
10/30/17: AHr= 54.69 SOH= 83% SOC= 90.3% Hx= 80.29% 392.65V -1.12A odo= 23,980 3 QCs & 1429 L1/L2s

webb14leafs said:
I don't see why you think you will be down to 9 bars in late 2018. If your car is currently 4 years old, that means you're losing roughly 4% capacity per year. In 18 months you should still have 11 bars at that rate.

I just lost my first bar last week. 2014 (late 2013 build date) S with 22,000 miles and only 6 QCs. 84% SOH. It had 87% SOH when I bought it in April. I live in south Florida and the summers are long and brutal. Hopefully my degradation rate holds to about 5-6% per year. I drive 40 miles per day and also have free Level 2 charging at work, so I really only need about 30 miles of range.
Click to expand...

This is why I had a feeling that I'll be down to 9 bars shortly after my warranty ends. Just 3 weeks later and only 182 miles later, I've lost 0.29 AHr and 1% SOH. Sorry to ask again but is this normal?
 
leafdriving said:
This is why I had a feeling that I'll be down to 9 bars shortly after my warranty ends. Just 3 weeks later and only 182 miles later, I've lost 0.29 AHr and 1% SOH. Sorry to ask again but is this normal?
Click to expand...
Of course that's normal. Remember, Nissan devised the warranty. :(
 
Hi Leafdriving,

Maybe you can use my data to evaluate. I live in Denmark, relative cold country.
My leaf is from august 2013, and have 19.484 miles. This is data from today:

AHr =59.78
SOH = 91%
SOC = 96.1%
395.05V
Hx = 91.38%
38 QCs
899 L1/L2s

I still have 12 bars and dont know when I Will loose my first one.
 
Hi,
Losing the 12th bar (~55Ahr) and 11th bar (~51Ahr) will happen quickly, at least that's how I've experienced it with both our 2011 Leafs.
Then, it takes a long time to lose the 10th and 9th bars. Our 2 Leafs were driven on different commute ranges and experienced different charging profiles throughout the a typical week.

Here's some old data if you're interested in the behavior of both our 2011 Leafs: http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=12789&start=800#p486628

We've since gotten new replacement batteries in our 2011 Leafs. Based on our past 5 - 6 year experiences, I would say the one thing that definitely helps with battery health is: Drive it within the hour of a full charge. My wife's car receives 2 full charges per day and her battery was never worse off than mine.

The next thing we shall avoid this time around, is depleting the battery down low, say to 2 bars. We'll try our best to use the vehicle down to 4 bars (lowest) before the next charge up.

For my car (lets call it the Silver Leaf): I would charge mine (to 80%) but barely use the vehicle some days of the week. The car will just be sitting there mostly @ 80% charge. I am trying to avoid this now the best that I can with my new battery, but it's difficult to time it right....

The climate in the SF Bay Area doesn't do much harm to the batteries. We park/charge both our vehicles outside the garage for the last 5 - 6 years. Lots of QC'ing doesn't do much harm either.


leafdriving said:
All your posts really did help. I came to the feeling that it's not that bad and it is what it is. I had already started just "driving" it like a car and not worrying about stuff.

Well yesterday I Level 2 charged it to 100%. I hadn't really fully charged the thing in about 4 months and I figured it'd be good to re-balance the battery pack. Today I hooked up LeafSpy to see if the numbers changed drastically because of the 100% charge/re-balance and I got these numbers (my first post's numbers are included first):

10/08/17: AHr= 54.98 SOH= 84% SOC= 70.9% Hx= 81.09% 384.78V -0.45A odo= 23,798 3 QCs & 1417 L1/L2s
10/30/17: AHr= 54.69 SOH= 83% SOC= 90.3% Hx= 80.29% 392.65V -1.12A odo= 23,980 3 QCs & 1429 L1/L2s

webb14leafs said:
I don't see why you think you will be down to 9 bars in late 2018. If your car is currently 4 years old, that means you're losing roughly 4% capacity per year. In 18 months you should still have 11 bars at that rate.

I just lost my first bar last week. 2014 (late 2013 build date) S with 22,000 miles and only 6 QCs. 84% SOH. It had 87% SOH when I bought it in April. I live in south Florida and the summers are long and brutal. Hopefully my degradation rate holds to about 5-6% per year. I drive 40 miles per day and also have free Level 2 charging at work, so I really only need about 30 miles of range.
Click to expand...

This is why I had a feeling that I'll be down to 9 bars shortly after my warranty ends. Just 3 weeks later and only 182 miles later, I've lost 0.29 AHr and 1% SOH. Sorry to ask again but is this normal?
Click to expand...
 
Just out of curiosity: if you buy a used Leaf and get down to eight bars within five years, can Nissan deny the replacement if the previous owner didn't do the stupid annual battery check?

Matters not to me, since the only way my battery would be that bad within the five year clock is if I set the car on fire...
 
rick64 said:
cwerdna said:
rick64 said:
2013 Leaf down to 8 bars. Bought it used in Feb 2016 with 11 bars/36k miles. We are in NorCal, summer temps get to 100 and cars sits in heat at work.

now at 45k miles. Service appointment is Thursday afternoon.
Click to expand...
Yay! What was the build month? It's on the driver's side door sticker. I guess you're in a hotter part of Nor Cal.

Can you add your car to http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#Loss_of_four_battery_capacity_bars_.2833.75.25.29? Thanks!
Click to expand...

car was built 01/13

yeah we live in Brentwood, CA. Summers can get pretty hot, rest of year is very mild though.

and I will add the car to the wiki
Click to expand...

Nice job on getting a new battery! I think I may not make the warranty period. I have 4 months left but it seems like the canary batteries degrade much more than the newer packs.

Manufacture date 1/2013
In service date 2/21/2013
AHr - 47.21
SOH 72%
Hx - 65.58%
ODO 33k
205 GIDs on full charge
3rd battery drop a year ago

I live in San Diego so the heat could help me in the winter months. Seems with the data on 4th bar drops is I have too far to go...

It seems like the goodwill Nissan had for the 2011 and 2012 battery packs received some out of warranty assistance. Some indicate they paid a fraction of a new battery 10-20%. Now with the 2013 it seems like Nissan is making a line in the sand. If your battery doesn't drop 4 bars at the end of the 5 years/60k, there is no help what so ever...

2013 Nissan Leafs unite!! Any others out there in my same situation we need to stand up. This isn't right. They get assistance and now we are out of luck?
 
BuckMkII said:
Just out of curiosity: if you buy a used Leaf and get down to eight bars within five years, can Nissan deny the replacement if the previous owner didn't do the stupid annual battery check?

Matters not to me, since the only way my battery would be that bad within the five year clock is if I set the car on fire...
Click to expand...

I specifically asked NOGASEV about this and their response was something like “the prior owner’s maintenance habits have no effect on the capacity warranty.” I took that to mean that the battery check history is irrelevant.
 
Received new 24 KW battery and PDM (power distribution module). Delivered battery 3 weeks after approval/order. One day to install. LeafSpy Pro indicates status as expected. Now it really is good car for fooling around city with maybe one charge a week.
—————————+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Corp Nissan approved my replacement (they now call it “condemnation). I get it in 3 weeks.
————————————-

2013 1st quarter - dropped 4th bar with AHr 41.058, HX 56.01, 20,139 Miles. Going to dealer on Monday for verification. Bought used from same dealer at 12,700 miles. I did battery check every time I visited dealer since March 2015 (state inspections, recall, telematics upgrade). All clean, last one included note from tech that I get a battery after losing one more bar.

My drop seemed overdue based on AHr, probably because of low mileage. I drive it several times a week with trips under 6 miles. I kept car covered from sun, but still exposed to ambient temperature in Texas. Longest drive was 25 miles. Only recently started using QC (EVGo) since Chargepoint not in this suburb.
 
BuckMkII said:
Just out of curiosity: if you buy a used Leaf and get down to eight bars within five years, can Nissan deny the replacement if the previous owner didn't do the stupid annual battery check?

Matters not to me, since the only way my battery would be that bad within the five year clock is if I set the car on fire...
Click to expand...

no
 
SeasonsAfter said:
Nice job on getting a new battery! I think I may not make the warranty period. I have 4 months left but it seems like the canary batteries degrade much more than the newer packs.

Manufacture date 1/2013
In service date 2/21/2013
AHr - 47.21
SOH 72%
Hx - 65.58%
ODO 33k
205 GIDs on full charge
3rd battery drop a year ago

I live in San Diego so the heat could help me in the winter months. Seems with the data on 4th bar drops is I have too far to go...

It seems like the goodwill Nissan had for the 2011 and 2012 battery packs received some out of warranty assistance. Some indicate they paid a fraction of a new battery 10-20%. Now with the 2013 it seems like Nissan is making a line in the sand. If your battery doesn't drop 4 bars at the end of the 5 years/60k, there is no help what so ever...

2013 Nissan Leafs unite!! Any others out there in my same situation we need to stand up. This isn't right. They get assistance and now we are out of luck?
Click to expand...

you don't have a Canary battery.

it would appear you probably don't drive enough to make it. 33 k in nearly 5 years will make it a tough challenge.
 
Why don't you think I have the canary battery? From my reading in these forums is if the manufacture date is between 1/2013-3/2013 is that is the older technology battery.

Please explain. I know with my numbers is in four months having the AHr drop to 42 will be nearly impossible. HX as well.

Oh well, I am hoping Nissan can find it in their hearts to help out an owner when the bar drops after the warranty period is over. Getting a replacement battery for 10-20% of the cost would be great!

The Leaf is great, I love not paying for gas or oil changes or smog checks. Teslas are way too expensive and it seems like they have all kinds of maintenance issues.

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/tesla_motors.html
 
you don't have a Canary battery.
Click to expand...


The pack that I call the "Canary pack" was made from 2011 through March of 2013. In 2013 the case was different, but since it appears to be chemically identical I consider the early build 2013 Leafs to have Canary packs.
 
Thanks for the response, I thought I was correct that my Leaf 's battery is classified as the Canary type.

If any 2013 Leaf owners have dropped their 4th bar, I'd like to know what numbers you are showing through Leaf Spy. These number drops might be different from the 2011 and 2012 models.

It would peak my curiosity what these early 2013 Leafs are dropping the 4th bar but can't find much on the wiki battery site as most of the information is 2011 and 2012 models. Other later builds of 2013s don't seem to be having the degradation issues as much as the earlier EV adopters.

Any 2013 1/2013-3/2013 manufacture date numbers anyone can share? I would imagine this is a pretty specific request, any information would be most helpful!

Thanks for all the forum comments and suggestions.
 
I dropped my 4th bar about two weeks ago and I’m waiting on my new battery to come in. Build date of 01/2013.

From my post on the previous page:

“Today at lunch it dropped the fourth bar after a quick charge. The stats have been bouncing around a bit since I’ve had the car (Ah range of 41.58 to 42.65, SOH 63-65%) but at the bar drop LeafSpy read 42.60Ah/65%SOH/58.45%Hx with 15 QCs and 1367 L1/L2 at 37,254 miles. ”
 
Thanks for the details on your 4th bar drop. Congrats! I wish I had the quick charger feature; I might be able to degrade it before the warranty expires.

:evil:
 

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