GetOffYourGas
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Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:42 pm

Yes, I follow that thread with great interest. If there is one for trucking (e.g. To-Be-Announced Tesla Semi, Cummings...), I have missed it.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

GRA
Posts: 7558
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:21 pm

I've moved this reply over from the Mirai thread, to keep that thread from repeating the same general argumentts re H2/FCEVs and BEVs that are endlessly repeated here.

TonyWilliams wrote:
GRA wrote:Oddly enough, lots of governments and companies around the world disagree that we've gone as far as we can on cost reductions, which is why so much money is being spent on research intended to reduce costs in all three areas. I do agree that there seems to be little room for cost reductions as far as PEV charging, and the only likely way to make for-profit charging equal or less expensive than fossil fuels is to let the utilities do it directly..


Excellent deduction... Hydrogen just needs tax payer funds thrown at it to "figure out" how to make it cheaper, but an EV that plugs in... no further cost reductions possible (even though it beats both hydrogen and gasoline per mile costs by HUUUUUUuuuuge margins).

Are you sure that you aren't paid by the fossil and hydrogen lobbies?

25 cents per mile and up - Toyota H2 car
10-25 cents per mile typical - Gasoline car
Pennies per mile - EV car

Well, let's see. PEVs have had $120 million thrown at them in California (NRG/eVgo settlement) by the state government in just the past few years for for-profit charging, and will have another $800 million thrown at them over the next 10 (VW settlement) primarily for the same thing, not to mention the $1.2 billion that will be thrown at them in the rest of the U.S. over that period from that same settlement, or the hundreds of millions if not billions that had already been thrown at them over the past 25 years or more (CalSTART etc.) H2 stations are getting a max of $200 million over 10 years in California, although they may be able in future (not in the first $200 million/30 month increment) to get some of the VW settlement money.

The only technical areas I see to reduce the cost of charging are decreases in EVSE costs, which will be fairly minor as far as lifecycle costs go, and in the case of QCs, cheap storage to reduce demand charges. The cost of electricity is unlikely to decrease much, and construction costs are fully mature. What major breakthroughs do you foresee that will radically reduce the cost of public for-profit charging, and eliminate the need for public subsidies of same?

To throw your own question back at you, are you sure you aren't paid by the BEV lobby? Actually, your business is directly dependent on PEVs, so I guess that answers the question of which of us has a direct financial interest in the success of one tech over another. As for me, I have no financial or emotional investment in any AFV tech, and realize that they are both still dependent on government and industry funding for further development and deployment, as well as government mandates to ensure that companies will continue to build them in sufficient numbers to meet those governments' goals.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:23 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:Yes, I follow that thread with great interest. If there is one for trucking (e.g. To-Be-Announced Tesla Semi, Cummings...), I have missed it.

AFV Truck and (non-BEV) Bus thread
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22441
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7558
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:04 pm

Via GCC:
Ballard, Nisshinbo collaborate to offer first PEM fuel cell using non-precious-metal catalyst
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09 ... -npmc.html

. . . Ballard has successfully incorporated the Non Precious Metal Catalyst into a high performing catalyst layer under a Technology Solutions program and plans to launch a new 30-watt FCgen-1040 fuel cell stack product incorporating NPMC for commercial use in late-2017.

    We are delighted that this collaboration with Nisshinbo has enabled the development of an innovative breakthrough technology to reduce the amount of platinum in an air-cooled fuel cell stack by more than 80%. The NPMC-based FCgen-1040 stack represents a step-change in PEM fuel cell technology with high performance at a reduced cost. Since platinum contributes 10-to-15% of the cost of a fuel cell stack today, we are very excited about the potential cost savings NPMC technology can enable moving forward. . . .

    —Dr. Kevin Colbow, Ballard’s Vice President – Technology and Product Development. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7558
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:50 pm

Via GCC:
EMEC produces first hydrogen from tidal energy
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09 ... -emec.html

. . . EMEC said that this marked the first time that hydrogen has been created from tidal energy.

By harnessing the power of the tide at EMEC’s tidal energy test site at the Fall of Warness, Eday, Orkney, prototype tidal energy converters—Scotrenewables’ SR2000 and Tocardo’s TFS and T2 turbine—fed power into an electrolyzer supplied by ITM Power situated next to EMEC’s onshore substation. The electrolyzer is housed in a standard 20' by 10' ISO container with hydrogen generation capacity of up to 220 kg/24 hours. . . .

The system’s principal component, a 0.5MW polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) electrolyzer, comes with integrated compression and up to 500kg of storage.

The Surf ‘n’ Turf project will see the electrolyzer producing hydrogen using electricity from EMEC’s test site as well as power from a 900kW Enercon wind turbine owned by the Eday community. The hydrogen will then be transported to Kirkwall, where a fuel cell installed on the pier will convert the hydrogen back into electricity for use as auxiliary power for ferries when tied up overnight. The project is also developing a training programme with a view to green hydrogen eventually being used as a fuel source on the inter-island ferries themselves.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7558
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:35 pm

Via GCC:
Ballard receives Nisshinbo P.O. for development program to advance use of non-precious metal catalyst fuel cells in material handling
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170918-ballard.html

. . . As announced last week, we are interested in exploring uses for the NPMC-based product for various commercial applications. Building on the new FCgen-1040 stack, which we plan to launch in late-2017, we are starting a program to assess the potential incorporation of Non Precious Metal Catalyst technology into our existing FCgen-1020 air-cooled stack as well as our next-generation liquid-cooled stack. With this purchase order from Nisshinbo, a new multi-year Technology Solutions program will be initiated to work on this challenging next-step.

Both air-cooled and liquid-cooled fuel cell stacks are used to power fork lift equipment in the field. Our goal is to ultimately implement lower-cost NPMC-based air-cooled and liquid-cooled stacks into certain mobility applications, with an initial focus on the material handling space, where blue-chip brands such as Walmart and Amazon have demonstrated the strong value proposition offered by current fuel cell-powered forklift trucks operating in high throughput distribution center environments.

—Dr. Kevin Colbow, Ballard’s Vice President – Technology and Product


Also GCC:
Ontario seeking design concepts for hydrogen-powered regional rail trains
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170918-go.html

The Canadian province of Ontario is electrifying its GO rail network to transform how people move around the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area (GTHA), and is seeking design concepts for hydrogen-powered trains as an alternative to conventional overhead wires. A division of Metrolinx, GO Transit is the regional public transit service for the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area. . . .

As part of planning the electrification, Ontario is undertaking a feasibility study on the use of hydrogen fuel cells.

Recent advances in the use of hydrogen fuel cells to power electric trains in other jurisdictions makes it important that Ontario consider this clean electric technology as an alternative to conventional overhead wires. The Hydrogen Rail (Hydrail) Feasibility Study will inform a decision on how Ontario will proceed with the electrification of GO rail services.

A number of rail vehicle manufacturers will be commissioned to prepare designs and to demonstrate the impact that incorporating hydrogen fuel cells into bi-level trains would have on the performance of the GO rail network. This work is an important part of studying the feasibility of hydrail. . . .

Ontario is investing $21.3 billion to transform GO Transit from a commuter transit service to a regional rapid transit system. The Hydrail Feasibility Study is anticipated to be complete by the end of 2017, with a decision on electrification technology to follow.

The province has issued a Request for Proposals (RFP) for concept design work to show how a hydrogen fuel cell system could be integrated into a Bi-level Electric Multiple Unit (EMU) train.

An EMU train is an electric-powered train consisting of multiple self-propelled carriages linked together. An EMU does not require a separate locomotive, as electric motors are incorporated in each carriage. Examples of EMUs currently in service include the Heathrow Flyer in the UK, the AGV in France and the TTC’s Toronto Rocket subway trains.

I'd think that for a high-density, high-frequency service like this, overhead rail would be cheaper. H2/FC is most likely to win out on cost grounds on low traffic density routes (such as across Canada's western plains), where the cost of building and maintaining all the overhead-wire infrastructure could outweigh the extra costs of the H2/FC combo. It will be interesting to see the conclusions and cost breakdowns when the study is complete.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:42 pm

Via GCC:
Navigant forecasts transportation demand for hydrogen to accelerate Power-to-Gas growth
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170920-p2g.html

Navigant Research forecasts that the transportation segment, with hydrogen demand as a catalyst, will jump-start power-to-gas (P2G) demand and further drive down electrolyzer and other infrastructure costs.

P2G—the conversion of electrical power into gaseous energy carriers—has been held back from mass adoption by high costs, regulatory hurdles, and difficulties with infrastructure. However, Navigant suggests, as the levelized cost of renewable energy falls and as electrolyzer technologies improve and decline in price, P2G business models are taking shape.

Navigant notes that P2G offers benefits to the electric grid through the integration of renewable energy sources. By ramping production up or down from a 50% setpoint, a P2G plant can emulate a load or generator from the grid’s perspective—thus ramping and smoothing renewables power output and time-shifting energy supply on a scale from hours to months. . . .

Direct link to Navigant report: https://www.navigantresearch.com/research/power-to-gas-for-renewables-integration
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7558
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:33 pm

Via GCC:
Report: Japan to ease regulations on H2 fueling stations to cut setup and operating costs in half
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09 ... panh2.html

The Nikkei reports that the Japanese government will ease regulations on hydrogen refueling stations, with the goal of making the refueling points less costly to set up and to operate in the hope of spurring the adoption of fuel cell vehicles.

    Setting up a hydrogen station costs 400 million yen to 500 million yen ($3.5 million to $4.4 million), and operating one costs 40 million yen to 50 million yen per year, according to METI. The body aims to have both setup and operating costs slashed in half by 2020 through development of lower-cost facilities and loosened regulations. . . .

As of the end of August, Japan had 91 hydrogen stations in operation. The government aims to have 160 up and running by fiscal 2020 and to have 320 by fiscal 2025.

One step in the regulatory easing will be lowering operating costs by loosening the requirements for station supervisors. Those supervisors currently must have experience at a facility that handles hydrogen, but in the future, experience with natural gas and other high-pressure gases will suffice, according to the report.

Stations will also no longer be required to have an employee who takes down cars’ license plates and keeps track of who buys hydrogen, a change that should cut labor costs.

METI will also reevaluate safety standards by fiscal 2019, incorporating the latest technology and knowledge to avoid overly strict rules.

It seems that japan's retail H2 regs are currently much more restrictive and costly than those in the U.S. or most European countries. In a country as addicted to tech as Japan, it's bizarre that they use a human being to record data that can and is easily done electronically.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7558
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:54 pm

Both via GCC:
Proton OnSite additional electrolyzer order as part of $22M deal; green hydrogen for fuel cell buses in China
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170926-proton.html

Proton OnSite, a wholly owned subsidiary of Nel ASA, received an order for the fourth M Series, Megawatt scale hydrogen electrolyzers in a thirteen M Series delivery agreement with Guangdong Synergy Hydrogen Power Technology Co., Ltd. (Synergy). (Earlier post.)

The original agreement between Proton OnSite and Synergy for 13 PEM megawatt systems, and naming Proton as the exclusive supplier of electrolyzers to Synergy, has a total value including installation and associated services of just over US$22 million. Installations and commissioning of the remaining units are planned for Q4, 2017 and through CY 2018. . . .

and
Proton OnSite, Nel Hydrogen receive $8.3M hydrogen electrolyzer fueling station contract
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170926-proton-1.html

Proton Onsite and Nel Hydrogen Solutions, divisions of Nel ASA, have received a purchase order of US$8.3 million on a combined hydrogen PEM electrolyzer and H2Station fueling solution for SunLine Transit Agency (SunLine) in California. The combined solution will have a hydrogen capacity of up to 900 kg per day, making it the world’s largest combined hydrogen production and fueling facility currently being contracted.

SunLine will use the solution for fueling of their growing fleet of fuel cell electric buses operating in the Palm Springs area in California.

The facility will be delivered turn-key, consisting of one Proton PEM M400 electrolyzer, and two H2Station units from Nel. Expected delivery and installation is during 2018. . . .

The project is supported by the Californian Air Resources Board (CARB) under the California Climate Investments (CCI) program.


See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22441&p=492332&hilit=sunline+transit#p492332 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22441&p=499806&hilit=sunline+transit#p499806 for details of the bus deal and FC supplier (Ballard).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7558
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:22 pm

Via GCC:
Linde submits LCFS pathway application for compressed H2 from natural gas reforming
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170927-linde.html

. . . The hydrogen is liquefied at a facility in Ontario, California, then re-gasified and compressed at Linde refueling stations.

Linde is basing its application on three months of electricity use data at two Linde hydrogen fueling stations. The company is requesting a provisional carbon intensity (CI) of 165.88 gCO2e/MJ for the proposed pathway. The CI value is based on lifecycle analysis conducted using the CA-GREET 2.0 Tier 2 model.

The well-to-wheel (WTW) fuel cycle analysis includes the production of liquid H2 at the Praxair facility in Ontario, California; transportation to the Linde stations; and compression at the fuel stations.

The proposed CI for this particular pathway is higher than other pathways for natural gas reforming to hydrogen, which range from from 105.13 to 151.01 gCO2e/MJ. As a contrast, the production of hydrogen from landfill gas can have a negative CI, while H2 production via electrolysis using renewable energy can have a CI of zero.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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