Nissan Battery Replacement Program, Cost

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there has been a constant improvement in battery chemistry over time and as my previous post suggests, I think we shall realize another significant date of Nov 2016 or later for the preferred build date of the 30 kwh pack just as after April 2013 was preferred for the 2013 build.

Interesting, didn't know there were good and bad 30kWH packs. Thanks for the info.

As for the 24kWh packs I typically advise folks to look for 2015 MY LEAF's and later. They all have the "lizard" packs, which appear to have some hidden buffer to prevent early degradation of range.

I see NEC is selling its half of AESC to a chinese investor. So that will probably mean the end of the AESC packs sooner rather than later. We will find out soon enough if the 2018 LEAF has AESC or another manufactures packs in them.
 
JPWhite said:
there has been a constant improvement in battery chemistry over time and as my previous post suggests, I think we shall realize another significant date of Nov 2016 or later for the preferred build date of the 30 kwh pack just as after April 2013 was preferred for the 2013 build.

Interesting, didn't know there were good and bad 30kWH packs. Thanks for the info.

As for the 24kWh packs I typically advise folks to look for 2015 MY LEAF's and later. They all have the "lizard" packs, which appear to have some hidden buffer to prevent early degradation of range.

I see NEC is selling its half of AESC to a chinese investor. So that will probably mean the end of the AESC packs sooner rather than later. We will find out soon enough if the 2018 LEAF has AESC or another manufactures packs in them.

Nothing official yet (but then again, there never has been acknowledgment from Nissan on differences in pack chemistry) but a few 30 kwh LEAFs have lost bars and they were all 2015 builds.

Now I am sure we could conjure up all kinds of reasons why Nissan decided to upgrade the S trim with 30 kwh just a few months away from the 2017 launch but to me the timing of the event suggests more.

I think or rather on a purely speculative note; feel that the date will become another characteristic when shopping used in a few years. Only time will tell. Who knows? Maybe the release date was simply random? I am sure big corporations who spend years meticulously planning these things just picked the date at random... :roll:
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Nothing official yet (but then again, there never has been acknowledgment from Nissan on differences in pack chemistry) but a few 30 kwh LEAFs have lost bars and they were all 2015 builds.

Now I am sure we could conjure up all kinds of reasons why Nissan decided to upgrade the S trim with 30 kwh just a few months away from the 2017 launch but to me the timing of the event suggests more.
I almost always agree with you but...

Two things: I believe in 2013, only a few 24kWh LEAFs had lost bars and they were all 2011s. What I mean is that it's possible the 2016s haven't been out long enough to see lost bars.

and

I believe Nissan had a contract for 220,000 electrodes from NEC for the 24kWh batteries. Once that contract was met, then the S was moved to the 30kWh battery...

Either way, I think Nissan has been a little uneven on help with out-of-warranty replacements but in general, they have been a very, very good job recently with a couple of notable exceptions.
 
jhm614 said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Nothing official yet (but then again, there never has been acknowledgment from Nissan on differences in pack chemistry) but a few 30 kwh LEAFs have lost bars and they were all 2015 builds.

Now I am sure we could conjure up all kinds of reasons why Nissan decided to upgrade the S trim with 30 kwh just a few months away from the 2017 launch but to me the timing of the event suggests more.
I almost always agree with you but...

Two things: I believe in 2013, only a few 24kWh LEAFs had lost bars and they were all 2011s. What I mean is that it's possible the 2016s haven't been out long enough to see lost bars.

and

I believe Nissan had a contract for 220,000 electrodes from NEC for the 24kWh batteries. Once that contract was met, then the S was moved to the 30kWh battery...

Either way, I think Nissan has been a little uneven on help with out-of-warranty replacements but in general, they have been a very, very good job recently with a couple of notable exceptions.

so they would have to negotiate a new contract to supply electrodes for 24 kwh warranty packs? Hmmm???

As far as "only a few 24 kwh LEAFs" that is way out in left field. We have the full spectrum of loss and longevity around the 2013-1014 LEAFs (2014's lumped in because the build year was so short) with a distinct line running about April 2013 where ones built before that date (remember the American production of the LEAF had only started a few months before that) were losing capacity a lot faster than ones built after that date leading to speculation that many had "Lizard" or at worst "Lizard trial" chemistry despite the "official" lizard launch being for the 2015 MY
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
so they would have to negotiate a new contract to supply electrodes for 24 kwh warranty packs? Hmmm???

As far as "only a few 24 kwh LEAFs" that is way out in left field. We have the full spectrum of loss and longevity around the 2013-1014 LEAFs (2014's lumped in because the build year was so short) with a distinct line running about April 2013 where ones built before that date (remember the American production of the LEAF had only started a few months before that) were losing capacity a lot faster than ones built after that date leading to speculation that many had "Lizard" or at worst "Lizard trial" chemistry despite the "official" lizard launch being for the 2015 MY

Re:Contracted Electodes Possibly, but they would have wanted to minimize it and certainly not negotiate a contract to support global S production.

Re:30kWh bar Loss in 2017. I'm not explaining this well. In August of 2013, there was no 2013 or 2014 bar loss, there was only 2011 bar loss. The 12's and 13's weren't old enough to have loss and the 14's hadn't been produced yet. In August of 2017, there is only '15 bar loss for the 30kWh. The '16s and '17s aren't old enough yet.
 
jhm614 said:
Re:2015 bar Loss in 2017. I'm not explaining this well. In 2013, there was no 2013 or 2014 bar loss, there was only 2011 bar loss. The 12's and 13's weren't old enough to have loss and the 14's hadn't been produced yet. In 2017, there is only '15 bar loss for the 30kWh. The '16s and '17s aren't old enough yet.
It was clear the first time, and I agree with your point. Too early to say whether Nissan started out with 30 kWh duds, and way too early to say whether the batteries have improved. Dave's attempt to extrapolate from an N=1 (the 24 kWh packs) is fairly silly.
 
JPWhite said:
I see NEC is selling its half of AESC to a chinese investor. So that will probably mean the end of the AESC packs sooner rather than later. We will find out soon enough if the 2018 LEAF has AESC or another manufactures packs in them.

It appears I had my story a little sideways. Nissan is buying out NEC's 49% and then selling the whole thing to a chinese investor.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/nissan-wont-build-its-own-electric-car-batteries-anymore/

Amounts to the same.
 
I'll try to be brief, but this could be a long post. Sorry. ;)

I just had my 2011 Leaf's traction battery replaced because there were only 7 bars showing and I was only getting 30 ~ 40 miles from a full charge (or so I think; I never let it run all the way out.) The battery warranty ran out in April, but I didn't understand which bars in the dash display meant what, so I didn't realize that the battery would probably have been replaced under the Nissan warranty in April.

I bought the car used in 2013 with about 5,000 miles on it from a Chevy dealer who shall remain nameless because of the shameful way they treated me. For instance, they registered the car as a gasoline burner because they couldn't figure out, or couldn't be bothered to figure out, how to register it as an electric car.

I didn't notice how many bars were showing when I bought the car because I didn't know what to look for. Possibly there were fewer than 10. I don't think it ever went more than about 60 miles on a full charge, though I never ran it all the way to zero to see how far it would go. It went far enough to suit my needs.

Whoever bought the car new purchased it from ABC Nissan of Phoenix, so this is where I took it to have the battery replaced. The service advisor was Matt Vronski and in my limited experience with car dealerships he went way out of his way to do me right. However, he didn't seem to know much about Leaf batteries. He gave me an estimate of a little over $7000 to replace the battery, parts and labor. That's what I'd been expecting, so I said okay.

Matt said I'd need to pay a little over $6000 before they'd order the new battery. I gave him a credit card with a $7000 limit and we were off. That was on a Friday as I recall.

Over that weekend I researched the web and found (on this forum) that Nissan has a program that will pay up to 80% of the cost of replacing a battery. So Monday morning I called the Nissan EV number (877) 664-2738 and talked to Jason at extension 458068. I gave him my particulars and he said he'd see what Nissan would do for me.

Later the same Monday, Matt from ABC Nissan called to say the battery was ordered and it would take a week or ten days to get here. Then later he called to say that Nissan had agreed to pay 70% of the cost of replacing the battery. It would only cost me a little over $2000.

The next day, Tuesday, Matt called to say the battery was here and when could I bring in the Leaf and leaf it for a day? I said the next day, Wednesday, would be fine, but I had no other transportation. Matt arranged a free rental for me. So I brought the Leaf in at 7 AM the next day, Wednesday. Wednesday evening, Matt called to say the battery was replaced and everything checked ok. The total for me would be a little over $2000. Matt refunded the $6000 back to my credit card, then charged the $2000 and I took the car.

After installing it, the battery was fast charged to 100% by ABC Nissan. When I started home, which is about a 12 mile drive on freeways, the remaining range indicator varied from a brief high of around 110 miles to a fairly steady reading of around 93 miles, if I remember right. Over the next two weeks I drove the car without recharging it, to see what its range would be. After 75 miles, the remaining range indicator said there were another 15 miles left. That's when I recharged it.

So I think this new battery will actually go about 90 miles, but that's the absolute maximum in a Phoenix summer. In the winter, of course, much less.
 
Flash said:
I'll try to be brief, but this could be a long post. Sorry. ;)

I just had my 2011 Leaf's traction battery replaced because there were only 7 bars showing and I was only getting 30 ~ 40 miles from a full charge (or so I think; I never let it run all the way out.) The battery warranty ran out in April, but I didn't understand which bars in the dash display meant what, so I didn't realize that the battery would probably have been replaced under the Nissan warranty in April.

I bought the car used in 2013 with about 5,000 miles on it from a Chevy dealer who shall remain nameless because of the shameful way they treated me. For instance, they registered the car as a gasoline burner because they couldn't figure out, or couldn't be bothered to figure out, how to register it as an electric car.

I didn't notice how many bars were showing when I bought the car because I didn't know what to look for. Possibly there were fewer than 10. I don't think it ever went more than about 60 miles on a full charge, though I never ran it all the way to zero to see how far it would go.

Whoever bought the car new purchased it from ABC Nissan of Phoenix, so this is where I took it to have the battery replaced. The service advisor was Matt Vronski and in my limited experience with car dealerships he went way out of his way to do me right. However, he didn't seem to know much about Leaf batteries. I got an estimate of a little over $7000 to replace the battery, parts and labor. That's what I'd been expecting, so I said okay. He said I'd need to pay a little over $6000 before they'd order the new battery. I gave him a credit card with a $7000 limit and we were off. That was on a Friday as I recall.

Over that weekend I researched the web and found (on this forum) that Nissan has a program that will pay up to 80% of the cost of replacing a battery. So Monday morning I called the Nissan EV number (877) 664-2738 and talked to a Jason at extension 458068. I gave him my particulars and he said he'd see what Nissan would do for me.

Later the same Monday, Matt from ABC Nissan called to say the battery was ordered and it would take a week or ten days to get here. Then later he called to say that Nissan had agreed to pay 70% of the cost of replacing the battery. It would only cost me a little over $2000.

The next day, Tuesday, Matt called to say the battery was here and when could I bring in the Leaf and leaf it for a day? I said the next day, Wednesday, would be fine, but I had no other transportation. Matt arranged a free rental for me. So I brought the Leaf in at 7 AM the next day, Wednesday. Wednesday evening, Matt called to say the battery was replaced and everything checked ok. The total for me would be a little over $2000. Matt refunded the $6000 back to my credit card, then charged the $2000 and I took the car.

After installing it, the battery was fast charged to 100% by ABC Nissan. When I started home, which is about a 12 mile drive on freeways, the range indicator varied between a brief high of around 110 miles and a fairly steady reading of around 93 miles, if I remember right. Over the next two weeks I drove the car without recharging it, to see what its range would be. After 75 miles, the remaining range indicator said there were another 15 miles left. That's when I recharged it.

So I think this new battery will actually go about 90 miles, but that's the absolute maximum in a Phoenix summer. In the winter, of course, much less.

congrats on the new pack (and essentially new car!) but the "lesser range in Winter" comment. Not sure that applies to you...
 
JPWhite said:
How many miles on it now?

I replaced mine with 99,000 miles on it and 7 bars left.
13,647 miles. I don't drive much. That's why I thought the Leaf would be perfect for me, and it has. When I do need to drive a long distance, I rent a gas-burner.

As for whether the Leaf won't go as far in a Phoenix winter as it does in the summer, we'll see. The original battery certainly seemed to lose a lot of range in the winter.

From the research I've done on the web about lithium cobalt cells, temperature is the parameter that has the biggest effect on their life. Everything else is a distant second. It does seem that keeping the battery between 50~80% might result in the longest life, but nothing I can do will much mitigate the effect of 110 degree summer heat here in Phoenix. Normally the most useful way to compare battery life would be how many miles, but here it's how many summers.
 
Flash said:
try to be brief, but this could be a long post. Sorry. ;)

Over that weekend I researched the web and found (on this forum) that Nissan has a program that will pay up to 80% of the cost of replacing a battery. So Monday morning I called the Nissan EV number (877) 664-2738 and talked to Jason at extension 458068. I gave him my particulars and he said he'd see what Nissan would do for me.

I wonder if there is an official reference to this program online besides "this forum" ? From how many bars and miles it "kicks in"?
 
jason98 said:
Flash said:
try to be brief, but this could be a long post. Sorry. ;)

Over that weekend I researched the web and found (on this forum) that Nissan has a program that will pay up to 80% of the cost of replacing a battery. So Monday morning I called the Nissan EV number (877) 664-2738 and talked to Jason at extension 458068. I gave him my particulars and he said he'd see what Nissan would do for me.

I wonder if there is an official reference to this program online besides "this forum" ? From how many bars and miles it "kicks in"?

https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/charging-range/battery/

Look at the paragraph entitled "Lithium-ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss:"

It details the program for the 30kWh battery since that's all they sell right now.
 
JPWhite said:
https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/charging-range/battery/

Look at the paragraph entitled "Lithium-ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss:"

It details the program for the 30kWh battery since that's all they sell right now.
It looks to me like that only applies to the battery warranty for a new car. After all, that whole website is dedicated to selling new Leafs.

When I had my battery replaced, I specifically asked the dealer if it would be the newest battery available and what the warranty would be. Nobody could, or would, tell me if the battery was 24 or 30 kWh or anything else about it except to assure me that it was a new battery with all-new cells. The warranty is not the same as it would be for a new car. It is the standard warranty the dealer offers for any genuine Nissan replacement component, which I think is a year. Possibly Nissan's national EV program would extend that. I didn't ask.
 
Flash said:
JPWhite said:
The warranty is not the same as it would be for a new car. It is the standard warranty the dealer offers for any genuine Nissan replacement component, which I think is a year.

The dealer should have had you sign paperwork acknowledging the replacement battery warranty, the terms would have been stated clearly on the paperwork. It is indeed the same as a new car battery warranty. For a 24kWh battery that is 5 years or 60,000 miles for capacity and 8 years 100,000 miles for workmanship and materials warranty.
 
I signed a lot of paperwork but I don't remember anything about a warranty, other than this odd thing:

V. Lithium-ion Battery Maintenance
As an all electric vehicle, the Nissan LEAF has unique features, service requirements, and safety risks that require specially trained technicians and some specialized equipment.

A. Lithium-Ion Battery Maintenance: Vehicle maintenance, including maintenance of the lithium-ion battery, is required as a condition of the Nissan Limited Warranty on Customer-purchased LEAF Lithium-Ion Battery.
Battery maintenance includes completion of an annual lithium-ion battery usage report. These include reports at 12 mos., 24 mos., 36 mos., 48 mos., 60 mos., 72 mos., and 84 mos. of vehicle ownership, which can be performed by a Nissan Certified LEAF dealer or any qualified repair facility. Damage or failure resulting from a failure to have these required services performed, or that could have been avoided had these services been performed, is not covered under the Nissan Limited Warranty on Customer-Purchased LEAF lithium-Ion Battery. (See your Nissan dealer and read the actual limited warranty for complete details).
There is also a part B and C but they are just legal boilerplate and warnings.

I never saw this Nissan Limited Warranty on Customer-purchased LEAF Lithium-Ion Battery and nobody mentioned it. I'm pretty sure Matt, my Service Advisor, did not know of its existence.
 
Flash said:
I signed a lot of paperwork but I don't remember anything about a warranty, other than this odd thing:

V. Lithium-ion Battery Maintenance
As an all electric vehicle, the Nissan LEAF has unique features, service requirements, and safety risks that require specially trained technicians and some specialized equipment.

A. Lithium-Ion Battery Maintenance: Vehicle maintenance, including maintenance of the lithium-ion battery, is required as a condition of the Nissan Limited Warranty on Customer-purchased LEAF Lithium-Ion Battery.
Battery maintenance includes completion of an annual lithium-ion battery usage report. These include reports at 12 mos., 24 mos., 36 mos., 48 mos., 60 mos., 72 mos., and 84 mos. of vehicle ownership, which can be performed by a Nissan Certified LEAF dealer or any qualified repair facility. Damage or failure resulting from a failure to have these required services performed, or that could have been avoided had these services been performed, is not covered under the Nissan Limited Warranty on Customer-Purchased LEAF lithium-Ion Battery. (See your Nissan dealer and read the actual limited warranty for complete details).
There is also a part B and C but they are just legal boilerplate and warnings.

I never saw this Nissan Limited Warranty on Customer-purchased LEAF Lithium-Ion Battery and nobody mentioned it. I'm pretty sure Matt, my Service Advisor, did not know of its existence.

It's not unusual for the dealer to be clueless. To settle your mind call Nissan Consumer Affairs and ask for a copy of the warranty statement for a customer purchased battery. No doubt they will send it to your dealer for you to pick up.
 
Flash said:
I signed a lot of paperwork but I don't remember anything about a warranty, other than this odd thing:

V. Lithium-ion Battery Maintenance
As an all electric vehicle, the Nissan LEAF has unique features, service requirements, and safety risks that require specially trained technicians and some specialized equipment.

A. Lithium-Ion Battery Maintenance: Vehicle maintenance, including maintenance of the lithium-ion battery, is required as a condition of the Nissan Limited Warranty on Customer-purchased LEAF Lithium-Ion Battery.
Battery maintenance includes completion of an annual lithium-ion battery usage report. These include reports at 12 mos., 24 mos., 36 mos., 48 mos., 60 mos., 72 mos., and 84 mos. of vehicle ownership, which can be performed by a Nissan Certified LEAF dealer or any qualified repair facility. Damage or failure resulting from a failure to have these required services performed, or that could have been avoided had these services been performed, is not covered under the Nissan Limited Warranty on Customer-Purchased LEAF lithium-Ion Battery. (See your Nissan dealer and read the actual limited warranty for complete details).
There is also a part B and C but they are just legal boilerplate and warnings.

I never saw this Nissan Limited Warranty on Customer-purchased LEAF Lithium-Ion Battery and nobody mentioned it. I'm pretty sure Matt, my Service Advisor, did not know of its existence.
Skip the "nobody told me excuse." That is why you learned to read in school.

However, take heart: the caveats have to do with battery DEFECT not degradation; and moreover, Nissan has to prove that your lack of visits caused the defect or made it materially worse -- that is, that Nissan would have been on the hook for a cheaper repair if they had known sooner.
 
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