Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

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mnl said:
has anyone tried Ballistic Performance batteries?
https://www.ballistic-batteries.com/category.php?cPath=141

I had a 12-cell EVO2 a few years ago in my race car (mazda miata) which basically only got driven about once a month for race days and it worked great and saved a ton of weight.

I started thinking about eventually replacing the 12v in my Leaf with one of these and started reading a few of the threads and its a bit over my head so i was hoping to get some feedback

i have a 2011 Leaf with the solar panel on the spoiler. while i'd prefer covered parking, it's not available to me so it parks in the sun (at least i can use that panel on the spoiler). i'm in a part of Japan where the temps throughout a year might get as low as around single digit -C and up to mid-30C. i drive the car only about once a week on the weekend for groceries/errands (i commute by bike for work), typically not going more than 5-10mi each trip. i rarely use the car in ACC mode. my priorities are reliability and weight savings.

seems like the ballistic offerings and other motorcycle batteries would be appropriate for my use-case. is there anything i'm missing?

thanks!

The batteries in the link you posted do not have enough capacity to reliably power the residual load of your Leaf while it is parked. The 2011 and 2012 models only turn on the DC-DC converter for a short time every 5 days so the 12-volt battery must have enough capacity to supply the residual load for 5 days. A larger capacity lithium ion battery or a deep cycle AGM lead acid battery would be better for your use.
 
my understanding was that the panel on the spoiler is basically a constant trickle charger for the 12v battery when the car is off, which i hoped would keep it topped off and thus not require as much capacity. what would you consider a minimum capacity?

thanks!

GerryAZ said:
The batteries in the link you posted do not have enough capacity to reliably power the residual load of your Leaf while it is parked. The 2011 and 2012 models only turn on the DC-DC converter for a short time every 5 days so the 12-volt battery must have enough capacity to supply the residual load for 5 days. A larger capacity lithium ion battery or a deep cycle AGM lead acid battery would be better for your use.

mnl said:
has anyone tried Ballistic Performance batteries?
https://www.ballistic-batteries.com/category.php?cPath=141

I had a 12-cell EVO2 a few years ago in my race car (mazda miata) which basically only got driven about once a month for race days and it worked great and saved a ton of weight.

I started thinking about eventually replacing the 12v in my Leaf with one of these and started reading a few of the threads and its a bit over my head so i was hoping to get some feedback

i have a 2011 Leaf with the solar panel on the spoiler. while i'd prefer covered parking, it's not available to me so it parks in the sun (at least i can use that panel on the spoiler). i'm in a part of Japan where the temps throughout a year might get as low as around single digit -C and up to mid-30C. i drive the car only about once a week on the weekend for groceries/errands (i commute by bike for work), typically not going more than 5-10mi each trip. i rarely use the car in ACC mode. my priorities are reliability and weight savings.

seems like the ballistic offerings and other motorcycle batteries would be appropriate for my use-case. is there anything i'm missing?

thanks!
 
i've also heard good things (generally speaking, not specifically for the leaf) about shorai batteries as well. they come in much higher capacities, but are still very lightweight and relatively affordable
http://shoraipower.com/-c41

i think i've seen someone else here with a shorai, but can't remember where.

is 18 close enough to 20? :p i'm not sure how much each Ah means in real life
 
All of this talk of replacing the Leaf 12 volt battery with these hi tech expensive batteries is total rubbish and a ridiculous waste of money. My Leaf battery is 3 years old, and NEVER been low on charge..

The Leaf battery is the least used and abused of any other car battery.... All it has to do is power the accessories (radio, lights, a/c), and the traction battery will replenish that energy. On a regular ICE car, the battery needs to be able to start the engine, and the power replenishment to the 12 volt battery is dependent on rpms of the engine.. Gas cars kill the battery when they use headlights, and air conditioning, and only drive stop and go at low speeds... The battery is only recharged at highway speeds.. The Leaf does not have to depend on engine RPM to recharge...

The people that buy $300 marine, AGM, or Lithium batteries obviously do not have enough to worry about in their lives, and have a lot of money to burn... People... Buy an $80 Costco battery, and forget about it.. Go to the food court, and have a nice day!!!
 
LeftieBiker said:
I'd say 20AH.

That's what I've been using for 3+ years now...and never had a problem (and I'm the OP). The simple facts are 12v lead-acid batteries do not do well with extreme temps or deep cycling.
 
powersurge said:
The Leaf battery is the least used and abused of any other car battery.... All it has to do is power the accessories (radio, lights, a/c), and the traction battery will replenish that energy. On a regular ICE car, the battery needs to be able to start the engine, and the power replenishment to the 12 volt battery is dependent on rpms of the engine.. Gas cars kill the battery when they use headlights, and air conditioning, and only drive stop and go at low speeds... The battery is only recharged at highway speeds.. The Leaf does not have to depend on engine RPM to recharge...

That all sounds logical, as long as you ignore the many reports of LEAF owners encountering dead batteries. When faced with a paradox, question your assumptions.
 
can someone set me straight on my apparently incorrect understanding that the panel on the spoiler is basically a constant trickle charger for the 12v battery when the car is off, which i hoped would keep it topped off and thus not require as much capacity? what does that panel actually do if this is not true?

also, does anyone have any experience with Shorai or is anyone able to tell from their website if their products would be a good option?

the Shorai LFX19A4-BS12 (http://shoraipower.com/lfx19a4-bs12-p41720) seems to be pretty perfect and is very reasonably priced right now from amazon (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I69WDUW/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1TFBK3C7LO58P). 19Ah, only 2.31lbs, and only about $157 shipped right now!

i would prefer not to replace my 12V before it is ready to be replaced, but my car is a 2011 and there doesnt seem to be any indication as to when it was last changed. i want to be prepared for if/when it's ready to go. furthermore, at your estimate of $80 for a normal battery from costco, the 19Ah shorai is less than double but typically speaking is likely to last more than twice as long. then there's the much lighter weight and smaller size making that weight lower down in the car. i don't care to argue what real life difference it makes, simply put i come from a racing background and the theory of weight reduction alone is enough that i wanna do it haha
 
The output of the solar panel might be enough in direct sun to offset the residual draw on the 12-volt battery. It is not sufficient to trickle charge enough to make up for the power draw when the sun is not shining. The 2011 and 2012 models charge the 12-volt battery from the traction battery every 5 days when parked so the 12-volt battery must have enough AHr capacity to supply the residual load for at least 5 days.

I recommend a deep cycle AGM battery with low internal resistance such as the Optima "yellow top" in size D51R (matches original size). The low internal resistance allows it to absorb more energy during the short charging period that happens every 5 days and during short-trip driving.
 
ah, so my understanding of the system is ok, just overestimating how much it will actually help, which sounds to be next to nothing.

holy moly the optimas are heavy! at least the D51R is the lightest one... i would still like to find a good lithium based solution. not in a rush as long as the current battery in there holds up :p youve mentioned reasons the AGM are a good choice, but are there any reasons a lithium based battery would be a bad choice?
 
GerryAZ said:
Only disadvantage to lithium is cost (assuming you get a high-quality one with adequate AHr capacity). Lithium batteries also have low internal resistance which allows them to absorb energy quickly.

Lithium batteries that consist of more than one cell need a BMS, unlike lead batteries, and the BMS is often the reason for premature failure.
 
would it be sufficient to connect to the bms say once a month or does it need to be connected constantly?

i just found out my 12V battery was installed in december 2014 at around 29k km and im at around 65k km i believe. while im driving, voltage seems to hang out around 12.8V. i was expecting the voltage to be 13V+ so its close, but not sure when i should start to worry. from reading a bit on here, it seems that the car would operate fine to even lower voltage levels. true? or is it time to start worrying now lol
 
The voltage of the 12-volt battery while driving is the output voltage of the DC-DC converter. Check the voltage of the 12-volt battery at its terminals with the car off and at least 5 minutes after closing doors to get an accurate measurement.
 
mnl said:
would it be sufficient to connect to the bms say once a month or does it need to be connected constantly?

i just found out my 12V battery was installed in december 2014 at around 29k km and im at around 65k km i believe. while im driving, voltage seems to hang out around 12.8V. i was expecting the voltage to be 13V+ so its close, but not sure when i should start to worry. from reading a bit on here, it seems that the car would operate fine to even lower voltage levels. true? or is it time to start worrying now lol

I can't believe how much confusion persists regarding the 12v battery in the Leaf...and Lithium replacements.
The BMS is integrated into (good) 12v Lithium replacement batteries, so there's nothing to "connect". That's why (good) Lithium replacements are more expensive: you get what you pay for.
@GerryAZ pretty much outlined the only dis-advantage to 12v Lithium replacements; the BMS is basically a bunch of electronics and has little to do with failure rates, which are much lower than standard lead-acid (I don't know anyone who hasn't had to replace their 12v battery in every car they own).
All sorts of strange things can happen to a Leaf with a low 12v battery, including (obviously) it won't start. I don't recommend leaving a marginal 12v battery in a Leaf, which is why I replaced mine (as mentioned in the OP) over 4 years ago with no issues.
 
mnl said:
my understanding was that the panel on the spoiler is basically a constant trickle charger for the 12v battery when the car is off, which i hoped would keep it topped off and thus not require as much capacity. what would you consider a minimum capacity?

thanks!
I've been running a 5Ah LiFe motorcycle starting battery for over 6 months now. Used it when temperatures were below 0F and above 100F. So far it has not been an issue at all and works like normally. Once I drove the maximum range of the car and then QCed, and then drove the full range again and parked in my driveway without plugging it in. It was over 100F that day and I was using the AC on max and I could hear the cooling fans going after parking the car. About an hour after I got home I went to move the car 10ft so I could plug it in but it did the christmas tree dashboard low battery thing. I only had to use a jump pack for two seconds and then the car started up right away. The LiFe's BMS has a low voltage cut off and no harm was done. Since then I have not had that issue happen again, but I drive the car nearly every day/plug it in every night. I would not suggest such a small battery for someone who rarely drives the car or who goes days on end without the need to plug in.
 
Here's an interesting option; LiFePo battery at a respectable 30AH at the best price I've seen for anything 20AH or better. Purpose-made for EV use -- not for ICE starter battery.

https://www.battmobilebatteries.com/product-page/cleaned-revised-lithium-12v-battery-for-tesla-mode

d26784_f64a92f4123f40b38a9643114d19e5d2~mv2.png
 
LeftieBiker said:
The page wouldn't load. How much is it? The main concern I'd have would be BMS failure, which is the bugaboo of small EV packs.

$395.

Was it the link not working? I figured the image might be dynamic but the link should work.

https://www.battmobilebatteries.com/product-page/cleaned-revised-lithium-12v-battery-for-tesla-mode

If not, just try battmobilebatteries.com They make this unit specifically for owners of Teslas, who seem to have even more 12V woes than we do, despite Tesla having switched early-on to deep-cycle AGM as original equipment.
 
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